Law The Failure of Bond Reform - Protecting Criminals instead of Victims

[new_mexico1]

But that won’t happen in america, bc a certain political party will pander to the criminals.

I agree. They'll probably go on and on about political reprisals.

 

[Source]

The bill of rights says that bail is ok. Just not excessive bail.

what democrats are doing is NO BAIL. Catering to the large criminal class of America. America is friggin full of criminals.

Cash bails only prevent poor people from being released. It actually is much worse than that. It makes poor people poorer by holding them. Depending on overall risk I think holding people accused of non violent crimes in jail due to inability to pay is excessive bail.


Pretrial detention has a disproportionate impact on communities of color. Nationwide, more than 60 percent of jail inmates are jailed pretrial; over 30 percent cannot afford to post bail. Blacks and Hispanics are much more likely to be held on bail than white individuals. Often, those being held on bail have simply been accused of low-level offenses; for instance, 75 percent of pretrial detainees have been charged with only drug or property crimes.

https://www.americanbar.org/groups/...nomic-justice/criminal-justice-debt-problems/

Releasing people pretrial doesn’t harm public safety
When these states, cities, and counties began releasing more people pretrial, there were no corresponding waves in crime.

https://www.prisonpolicy.org/blog/2020/11/17/pretrial-releases/

 

[A Very Serious Cat]

Anyone convicted of a violent crime while out on bail should be given an automatic maximum to life. It wouldn't solve the issue but would certainly limit the number of times someone can do shit.

 

[Proud American]

Cash bails only prevent poor people from being released. It actually is much worse than that. It makes poor people poorer by holding them. Depending on overall risk I think holding people accused of non violent crimes in jail due to inability to pay is excessive bail.


Pretrial detention has a disproportionate impact on communities of color. Nationwide, more than 60 percent of jail inmates are jailed pretrial; over 30 percent cannot afford to post bail. Blacks and Hispanics are much more likely to be held on bail than white individuals. Often, those being held on bail have simply been accused of low-level offenses; for instance, 75 percent of pretrial detainees have been charged with only drug or property crimes.

https://www.americanbar.org/groups/...nomic-justice/criminal-justice-debt-problems/

Releasing people pretrial doesn’t harm public safety
When these states, cities, and counties began releasing more people pretrial, there were no corresponding waves in crime.

https://www.prisonpolicy.org/blog/2020/11/17/pretrial-releases/

Oh, you think the Capitol trespassers shouldn’t be held in solitary confinement for 4 months pre trial?

do tell

 

[Source]

Oh, you think the Capitol trespassers shouldn’t be held in solitary confinement for 4 months pre trial?

do tell

Are you so warped by your political delusions that you can not have an honest discussion or are you legitimately develop mentally disabled?

 

[BKMMAFAN]

Posting examples of poor decisions of judges is not proof of the failure of bond reform. Did the judge in the case in the OP not have discretion to hold that defendant on no bond or a very high one? If so, blame that particular judge and not those advocating for bail/bond reform.

Judges typically have discretion to set bail at an amount that will reasonably assure the defendant’s appearance in court, with consideration for the protection or safety of any person or the community, and that the defendant will not obstruct the criminal justice process, ie flight risk. Persons being held in pre-trial detainment who are unable to pay bail or get a bondsman to post surety will be stuck in confinement, presumed innocent, until a trial is held or he/she eventually attains the money necessary to get bailed out. This means defendants, poor and disproportionately minorities, routinely spend months or more in local jails awaiting trial for minor, non-violent offences when any other person of average means or better would be free pending trial. It perpetuates a two tiered system of justice; one for the well off, and one for the destitute.

 

[maximus__]

That would start to infringe on having a fair defense. If a lawyer was responsible for your actions, there wouldn’t be any defense lawyers in the USA.

I agree, but it's applied to Police so how is it different? Same with judges and prosecutors.

The real aim of the court system is to view the available evidence before the court and make a determination on a guilty or not guilty verdict. Police arrest the offender, gather initial evidence and present both to the court to decide on an outcome. The prosecutors present that case to the court on behalf of the victim. The defence is meant to show mitigating factors why the Accused is not necessarily guilty of the offence and explain why those actions occurred or that it wasn't actually the Accused at fault for what happened. Personal circumstances in sentencing also apply in this case and defence can present an argument why maybe reduced sentencing or a lesser charge is appropriate.

If defence lawyers were responsible for their clients actions they may remember the above. It isn't about getting your client off charges it's about due process and getting a fair result for the Accused. You murder someone or violently assault them you deserve to be punished. If you continue to do that you deserve to spend time in prison or something similar to protect future victims.

IMO the same should apply to judges with bail in particular. Some of these defence lawyers and judges are some of the highest paid people where I live, it's time that pay came with some risk.

Yes I know it will never happen, but you could make major changes overnight by doing this.

 

[Shoden]

And someone paying bail, getting out, then committing crimes/running away is much better lol.......There's lots of examples of this.



LMFAO @ thinking this Pay 4 Freedom crap, regardless of how huge of a POS criminal you are, is ok.......Sorry but $ should not be a factor in whether somebody is freed or not...the system is clearly flawed and it's pay 2 win...it's not more "safe".




We don't need a fucking bail middle man taking a piece of a pie.....Either a criminal is a huge POS and shouldn't get bail or he isn't....Money shouldn't be a factor.

 

[lifelessheap]

Punishment is not the answer, but seemingly all some of you want. you need to get to the source of the problem. We need better education, better programs to help those in the inner cities to lift themselves up. sticking people in jail isnt the answer long term. its just easiest

The unwilling can't educated.

 

[tangata motu'a]

The unwilling can't educated.

reading that, i am guessing you were pretty unwilling

 

[Kdup]

I agree, but it's applied to Police so how is it different? Same with judges and prosecutors.

The real aim of the court system is to view the available evidence before the court and make a determination on a guilty or not guilty verdict. Police arrest the offender, gather initial evidence and present both to the court to decide on an outcome. The prosecutors present that case to the court on behalf of the victim. The defence is meant to show mitigating factors why the Accused is not necessarily guilty of the offence and explain why those actions occurred or that it wasn't actually the Accused at fault for what happened. Personal circumstances in sentencing also apply in this case and defence can present an argument why maybe reduced sentencing or a lesser charge is appropriate.

If defence lawyers were responsible for their clients actions they may remember the above. It isn't about getting your client off charges it's about due process and getting a fair result for the Accused. You murder someone or violently assault them you deserve to be punished. If you continue to do that you deserve to spend time in prison or something similar to protect future victims.

IMO the same should apply to judges with bail in particular. Some of these defence lawyers and judges are some of the highest paid people where I live, it's time that pay came with some risk.

Yes I know it will never happen, but you could make major changes overnight by doing this.

I would happily have that be the case for violent criminals. But when you start jailing people for drugs, it becomes a bit of a joke. Not to mention things like civil asset forfeiture, red flag laws, and things like that, where the police have grown exponentially. The whole justice system is bloated and needs a reform. Police need to stop enforcing all these bullshit laws and get back to the basics of, if you’re not hurting anyone else or their property, then it doesn’t need to involve the government.

 

[Hadron90]

The problem is that the state can't be perfect in assessing whether or not they're a risk for violence. Just because these mistakes are made doesn't mean we should keep cash bail which stacks the deck against the poor and in favor of the rich. Like in this scene.

Spoiler: Better Call Saul

@Gregolian

But that scene in Better Call Saul proves his point, right? The judge should have denied that guy bail. He was a murderer and only want to bond out so he could the country.

 

[Islam Imamate]

But that scene in Better Call Saul proves his point, right? The judge should have denied that guy bail. He was a murderer and only want to bond out so he could the country.

Not really though. the issue there is that the judge was inaccurate in deeming that "Jorge de Guzman" was not a flight risk but then also decided to impose a $7 million bail thinking he wouldn't be able to pay it. What if he was who he claimed that judge thought was and actually was not a flight risk and unable to pay that enormous bail? He'd be stuck in jail for not being able to pay bond.

 

[maximus__]

I would happily have that be the case for violent criminals. But when you start jailing people for drugs, it becomes a bit of a joke. Not to mention things like civil asset forfeiture, red flag laws, and things like that, where the police have grown exponentially. The whole justice system is bloated and needs a reform. Police need to stop enforcing all these bullshit laws and get back to the basics of, if you’re not hurting anyone else or their property, then it doesn’t need to involve the government.

This exact thread is in relation to violent crimes and repeat violent offenders. Do I think you should be locked up for life due to a little pot, nope, but I am less resistant to it for heroin dealers and other harder drugs. These drugs are a driver of violent crime to support these habits and people die as a result of bad drugs. Those people should be charged with some form of murder if they sell it to someone and that person dies, but that's a whole other discussion.

 

[Scerpi]

Bringing this thread back… Wisconsin DA admits that implementing bond reform will likely put citizens at risk

'You bet my bail reforms will kill people': Shocking 2007 admission by woke Milwaukee District Attorney John Chisholm who freed Waukesha parade killer three weeks ago on $1,000 bond
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...reform-GUARANTEED-innocent-people-killed.html

 

[RogerB08]

Given the sheer number of people who get arrested an post bond or get ROR it's inevitable that some of them are going to offend while awaiting trial. How many many domestic abusers have killed their partners after being given low bond or being ROR by conservative judges? How many Brock Turners have been given a slap on the wrist by a conservatives judge because they have a bright future that the judge doesn't want to ruin? But keep on cherry picking based on political ideology.

 

[Otto!]

Money should not be a factor. If you’re dangerous, you shouldn’t be allowed to buy your way out.

 

[HockeyBjj]

Money should not be a factor. If you’re dangerous, you shouldn’t be allowed to buy your way out.

yup. Paying a few thousand shouldn’t change the equation

Eliminate cash bail for people who don’t seem to be dangerous to others before their trial. Increase the number of holds for violent offenders with clear evidence against them

 

[Protectandserve]

One way to fix it is make the judges accountable like they have the Police. You grant bail for violent offences and someone gets killed by that person reoffending you can be sued by the family and face criminal charges. It's no different to removing qualified immunity to Police from my understanding. The same should be done for judges, prosecutors and defence lawyers.

This is my biggest argument on qualified immunity. You want to drop it for cops, do the same for judges and prosecution who lets these fuckers back on the street.

 

[Source]

Anyway I think we should have corporal bail instead of cash bail. Oh you want to get out until your trial? That'll be 25 strokes of the cane.

I think you’re being facetious. This would likely violate the 5th and 8th amendments. Bail is not and should not be a punishment. The purpose of bail is to get the defendant to trial.