The fact that LHW has so many former super-stars overhypes Jon Jones immensely.

Discussion in 'The Lightweights' started by Unicorn Princes, Jan 1, 2015.

  1. Unicorn Princes

    Unicorn Princes Banned Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2014
    Messages:
    353
    Likes Received:
    5
    Most of them weren't actually relevant at the time they fought Jon Jones, but were still regarded as huge celebrities in the MMA community. If you look at their performances and records leading up to / and after their fight with Jon Jones I think it's pretty obvious that a lot of the Jon Jones hype came from the fact that he was beating guys with 'big names' but hardly the toughest competition at the time.

    IMHO Jose Aldo has faced a lot tougher competition than Jon Jones, yet most of you couldn't even name a single super star other than him in the entire FW division, so it diminishes his accomplishments a lot.

    But to call LHW "murderer's row" in the current MMA world is just silly. Back in the Pride days when you had Wanderlei, Vitor, Shogun, Liddell, Rampage, Rashad etc. LHW was the true "murderer's row." But in modern day MMA it's really not. If you look at the top 10 in LHW division the skill gap between the #10 and #5 guys is huge.

    Yet if you look at Middle Weight, the top 10 division is absolutely stacked. Every single fighter looks like they could be the next MW champion.

    TL;DR LHW division hasn't been murderer's row for years (like pre Machida era), and most of Jon Jones hype comes from the fact that he fought and beat guys who had star status years before he even got into this sport, but who were / are no longer relevant to the sport anymore.
     
  2. JayElectra

    JayElectra Paper Belt Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2010
    Messages:
    33,384
    Likes Received:
    2,187
    Mad liberator.

     
  3. the ambush

    the ambush Red Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2013
    Messages:
    7,739
    Likes Received:
    5,403
    Location:
    Angels don't die
    Funny. I have no conclusive proof however my brain tells me Machida would be favored against every LHW in paragraph 3 outside of Shogun.

    The new breed LHWs of MMA (Jones, Cormier, and Gustafsson) more than likely defeat them all.
     
  4. UJustGotChaeld

    UJustGotChaeld Steel Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2011
    Messages:
    32,709
    Likes Received:
    9,230
    LHW is the 2nd shallowest division now, and it's better now than it has been in years. What you say is true. That doesn't mean Bones is not impressive, he is, but the myth is more than the man in my opinion.

    The LHW division of today is much better than the one he has almost all his wins in.
     
  5. UJustGotChaeld

    UJustGotChaeld Steel Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2011
    Messages:
    32,709
    Likes Received:
    9,230
    Outside the top 4, Jones, DC, Gus, Rumble, LHW is very shallow.
     
  6. phatron

    phatron Black Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2012
    Messages:
    6,955
    Likes Received:
    3,759
    that's why 3 of Jones' last 6 opponents have been MW's.

    Jones hasn't finished a LHW in 4 years.
     
  7. lefthighkick01

    lefthighkick01 Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2012
    Messages:
    3,699
    Likes Received:
    2,109
    Location:
    Adelaide, South Australia
    I agree with you, Jones came into the division at the perfect time, and he resume is wayy overrated, but the guy is legit still, but c'mon, Dan fucking Henderson at 43yrsold was about the get a title shot at Jon Jones, doesnt that tell us abit about how terrible the LHW division is at the moment?

    also 2 of Jones title defenses were MW's. Dont get me wrong Jones is legit and the Chael/Vitor fights weren't his choice, but they get counted as Great title defenses because for the sole reason that Chael and Vitor are big names?

    Dont get me wrong, Jon Jones is a great fighter, but I just think his run is a combo of perfect timing of undersized LHW's and on the downside of their careers fighers.

    Also the only guy that matched Jones for size and age Gus arguably beat Jones. LHW hasnt yet completed its transition of gaining young fresh talent with proper LHW statures.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2015
  8. The Accuser

    The Accuser Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2014
    Messages:
    2,524
    Likes Received:
    2,922
    This.

    But I would say that during much of Jones' run LHW was better than MW, thus making it only the third most shallow division. Only recently has MW become deeper than LHW when some misplaced MWs moved into their appropriate division.
     
  9. UJustGotChaeld

    UJustGotChaeld Steel Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2011
    Messages:
    32,709
    Likes Received:
    9,230
    I agree. I think MW was weaker when Jones started. Currently LHW is weaker, they flip flopped.
     
  10. Docile

    Docile Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2012
    Messages:
    3,341
    Likes Received:
    286
    Location:
    Sweden
    Troll account?


    Fact is that those are the toughest guys in the division, you can go on all you want about how they didn't do well after facing Jones, but who didn't they do well against?

    Bader and Glover both beat Rampage, so now he "looks bad" , but how does that affect Jones in any way when he already destroyed both Bader and Glover?
    And Rashad has had some off nights, but in a career as long as his is, that's only natural, and he still had time to outwrestle Phil Davis, submit Chael Sonnen who, using fantastic technique, finished shogun, and then Jon outmaneuvered Belfort, who has been destroying some of the greatest prospects in MMA and a legend in Henderson.

    To me it seems like when these guys lose you go "Oh I guess that means he had that weakness all along and really wasn't that good" while when they win you go "yeah but look, the guy they just won against just lost, so how good can that guy really be?"

    If you give great weight to every loss and discredit every single win, then EVERYONE is LOOKING BAD. when that is clearly not the case.

    After Jones loses to DC (if that were to happen) you're gonna be in this thread going, SEEEE I told ya'll!! .. Please tell me your understand how fucking retarded that is?

    They can't all be constantly unstoppable, sometime's they'll look bad, but if you assume they look bad because they've secretly always been terrible and not because they're facing someone genuinely better, then guess what. Everyone will eventually suck and you'll be missing out on what it means to truly believe in a fighter with all its ups and downs. :(
     
  11. TheScorpionDude

    TheScorpionDude Get over here! ~~~~~~~~~~~~==>

    Joined:
    May 15, 2014
    Messages:
    8,551
    Likes Received:
    10,932
    Location:
    NetherRealm
    I feel the same way about LHW.

    Same thing happened when they used Nog, Randy and CC at HW. That's why JDS and Cain are falling apart now and Brock and Carwin are nowhere to be found. We proclaimed them as GOATS, New breed .... while all of them combined don't have as many fights as CC. They are built weaker.

    We really don't appreciate Fedor, CC and Nog as much as we should. They lasted way longer than today's fighters.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2015
  12. phatron

    phatron Black Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2012
    Messages:
    6,955
    Likes Received:
    3,759
    pretty sure he is 99silva
     
  13. moreorless87

    moreorless87 Disarming Posting

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2007
    Messages:
    33,590
    Likes Received:
    20,147
    I don't think it was quite THAT bad as I don't think any of the guys Jones beat had dropped off to the degree Nog and Crocop had. However I do think you can also point to size being a significant issue with Jones arguably the first of the truly elite large LHW's on the scene. He's not THAT oversized for todays LHW division but he clearly is a lot larger than Rashad, Lyoto and Shogun.

    You wonder what would have happened if say Gus had been at his current level 2-3 years earlier, I think its very likely he would have beaten everyone Jones has.

    The problem(or rather an opening for promoters to exploit with hype) MMA has I would say is that there still a culture of "listing names" on a guys record to show his achievement with little though to when the fights happened. If you look back to the early/mid 00's this kind of made sense(outside of questionable decisions) as so much of the talent base had entered the sport together so pretty much everyone was in their prime together. Over the post Pride years though things have changed a lot, todays MMA has a lot more declining stars who's names on your win list aren't worth nearly what they would have been 5-10 years earlier.
     
  14. Gavster

    Gavster Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2011
    Messages:
    2,156
    Likes Received:
    673
    That's a sad conclusion.
    Paving the way for the Jones fought cans as a future argument because you don't like him?
     
  15. Shogun Rising

    Shogun Rising I am Shiva god of death

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2011
    Messages:
    8,534
    Likes Received:
    60
    205 is a different division now than before.

    Now a lot of those guys are showing serious age and wear. So at first glance it can look like a shallow division. Though I think Sugar Rashad still has something in his tank. I don't think he's shown signs of demise other than a lackluster "fight" with Rogerio where he all but beat himself with just inactivity and not caring.

    Meanwhile, there just weren't guys like current Jones, Gustafsson, or Cormier in the mix before.

    Take Shogun for example. He's historically struggled against larger guys. If we take his career up to before the Jones fight. Forrest, Coleman, Overeem, and Diabate. He either had some struggle in those fights or just lost.

    The thing about these guys, though, is that they all had glaring holes in their games. Diabate had/has no ground game, and after being a bit frustrated early in the fight against Diabate Shogun took him down and knocked him out. Overeem's chin, ground, and cardio. Overeem came out like a demon both fights and was pretty effective using his size to overwhelm Mauricio until Mauricio got him down and fucked him up both times. Coleman had that crazy win over Shogun, but in the rematch Shogun was tired while winning one-sided rounds one and two before eventually struggling in the third before Coleman's cardio and lack of striking got him knocked out.

    Even with Forrest, Shogun came out throwing fireballs first fight and got winded out, got beat up by the larger Forrest who had better conditioning. In the rematch, he hung back and was totally measured, and he very quickly took advantage of the dramatic speed advantage to knock him out.

    Vera is after the Jones fight, but he's from the generation before so I'll mention it. Shogun struggled with him handily, as well. He's a bigger dude and poses some problems on the feet. Mauricio immediately was looking to exploit Vera's wrestling like Thiago and Randy wanted to do, as well, and it turned into a mad brawl and Vera ultimately couldn't hang and got knocked out.

    These big dudes now aren't bringing these glaring deficiencies into fights. Now Johnson still probably has some submission holes in his game if you get him down, and maybe Gustafsson does but I doubt it, but Johnson has some exemplary takedown defense so it's a limited deficiency.

    Gustafsson is this fast and sharp giant dude with excellent footwork and excellent boxing, who showed superb takedown defense against one of the best wrestlers in MMA in Jones, and who has shown a great chin as well as some serious skill in the clinch. There's nothing to exploit here. There's not a button a guy just has to keep pressing until it works.

    Cormier. This dude's thick as a tree and is just a monster at everything he does. Handled Dangerous Dan like a cop ragdolling a pissy teenager. Dan was pushing Fedor around in the clinch in their fight. Dan's stout as they come and while he's aged, Cormier chucked him through the air like nothing. No weaknesses in this dude.

    Then Jones. Maybe the greatest ever. Teixeira has shown quality everything up until the Davis fight. Davis is a pretty big dude with great strength but who is still exploitable maybe—but surprised everyone with the Teixeira fight, and Davis managed multiple takedowns on Lyoto. Johnson's a killer with great TDD. And all these dudes are just bigger guys than the old guard. They're superior athletes. They get more push and movement out of their muscles. They all train like professionals and come in well-conditioned unlike guys like Rampage or Mauricio Shogun who no one knows what they're going to get fight-to-fight.

    It's just a new age in historically the most prolific division in MMA, and many of the old guard have at least contemplated dropping to 185 or have become shells of themselves, or both.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2015
  16. Rhood

    Rhood Gold Belt

    Joined:
    May 14, 2008
    Messages:
    15,601
    Likes Received:
    4,123
    The only reason why the LHW looks weak right now is because most of the fighters from the division are retired or fighting in another organization.
    Babalu, Liddell, Couture, Ortiz, Bonnar, Griffin, Irvin, Jardine, Rampage, Hamill, Vera, Thiago Silva, Houston Alexander

    But we still have:
    Gus, LiL Nog, Shogun, Henderson, Johnson, Cormier, Rampage, Davis, Glover, Maldonado, Manuwa, OSP, Evans
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2015
  17. randomalias

    randomalias Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2009
    Messages:
    4,864
    Likes Received:
    1,987
    Location:
    United States of Europistan
    That is a whole lot of truth.
     
  18. fourtyounce48

    fourtyounce48 Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2003
    Messages:
    2,707
    Likes Received:
    64
    Location:
    Norcal
    jones is a great fighter but what you say does have a lot of truth to it.
     
  19. DizzyYeahYeah

    DizzyYeahYeah Red Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2013
    Messages:
    7,997
    Likes Received:
    1,876
    Location:
    Perth
    You have 2 anti-Jones threads on the front page. You should try and make it 3.
     
  20. _Keyser_Soze_

    _Keyser_Soze_ Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2007
    Messages:
    3,982
    Likes Received:
    95
    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    Thinly veiled hate thread. How original...
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.