The fact that LHW has so many former super-stars overhypes Jon Jones immensely.

[Unicorn Princes]

Most of them weren't actually relevant at the time they fought Jon Jones, but were still regarded as huge celebrities in the MMA community. If you look at their performances and records leading up to / and after their fight with Jon Jones I think it's pretty obvious that a lot of the Jon Jones hype came from the fact that he was beating guys with 'big names' but hardly the toughest competition at the time.

IMHO Jose Aldo has faced a lot tougher competition than Jon Jones, yet most of you couldn't even name a single super star other than him in the entire FW division, so it diminishes his accomplishments a lot.

But to call LHW "murderer's row" in the current MMA world is just silly. Back in the Pride days when you had Wanderlei, Vitor, Shogun, Liddell, Rampage, Rashad etc. LHW was the true "murderer's row." But in modern day MMA it's really not. If you look at the top 10 in LHW division the skill gap between the #10 and #5 guys is huge.

Yet if you look at Middle Weight, the top 10 division is absolutely stacked. Every single fighter looks like they could be the next MW champion.

TL;DR LHW division hasn't been murderer's row for years (like pre Machida era), and most of Jon Jones hype comes from the fact that he fought and beat guys who had star status years before he even got into this sport, but who were / are no longer relevant to the sport anymore.

 

[JayElectra]

Mad liberator.

 

[the ambush]

Most of them weren't actually relevant at the time they fought Jon Jones, but were still regarded as huge celebrities in the MMA community. If you look at their performances and records leading up to / and after their fight with Jon Jones I think it's pretty obvious that a lot of the Jon Jones hype came from the fact that he was beating guys with 'big names' but hardly the toughest competition at the time.

IMHO Jose Aldo has faced a lot tougher competition than Jon Jones, yet most of you couldn't even name a single super star other than him in the entire FW division, so it diminishes his accomplishments a lot.

But to call LHW "murderer's row" in the current MMA world is just silly. Back in the Pride days when you had Wanderlei, Vitor, Shogun, Liddell, Rampage, Rashad etc. LHW was the true "murderer's row." But in modern day MMA it's really not. If you look at the top 10 in LHW division the skill gap between the #10 and #5 guys is huge.

Yet if you look at Middle Weight, the top 10 division is absolutely stacked. Every single fighter looks like they could be the next MW champion.

TL;DR LHW division hasn't been murderer's row for years (like pre Machida era), and most of Jon Jones hype comes from the fact that he fought and beat guys who had star status years before he even got into this sport, but who were / are no longer relevant to the sport anymore.

Funny. I have no conclusive proof however my brain tells me Machida would be favored against every LHW in paragraph 3 outside of Shogun.

The new breed LHWs of MMA (Jones, Cormier, and Gustafsson) more than likely defeat them all.

 

[UJustGotChaeld]

LHW is the 2nd shallowest division now, and it's better now than it has been in years. What you say is true. That doesn't mean Bones is not impressive, he is, but the myth is more than the man in my opinion.

The LHW division of today is much better than the one he has almost all his wins in.

 

[UJustGotChaeld]

Funny. I have no conclusive proof however my brain tells me Machida would be favored against every LHW in paragraph 3 outside of Shogun.

The new breed LHWs of MMA (Jones, Cormier, and Gustafsson) more than likely defeat them all.

Outside the top 4, Jones, DC, Gus, Rumble, LHW is very shallow.

 

[phatron]

Outside the top 4, Jones, DC, Gus, Rumble, LHW is very shallow.

that's why 3 of Jones' last 6 opponents have been MW's.

Jones hasn't finished a LHW in 4 years.

 

[lefthighkick01]

Most of them weren't actually relevant at the time they fought Jon Jones, but were still regarded as huge celebrities in the MMA community. If you look at their performances and records leading up to / and after their fight with Jon Jones I think it's pretty obvious that a lot of the Jon Jones hype came from the fact that he was beating guys with 'big names' but hardly the toughest competition at the time.

IMHO Jose Aldo has faced a lot tougher competition than Jon Jones, yet most of you couldn't even name a single super star other than him in the entire FW division, so it diminishes his accomplishments a lot.

But to call LHW "murderer's row" in the current MMA world is just silly. Back in the Pride days when you had Wanderlei, Vitor, Shogun, Liddell, Rampage, Rashad etc. LHW was the true "murderer's row." But in modern day MMA it's really not. If you look at the top 10 in LHW division the skill gap between the #10 and #5 guys is huge.

Yet if you look at Middle Weight, the top 10 division is absolutely stacked. Every single fighter looks like they could be the next MW champion.

TL;DR LHW division hasn't been murderer's row for years (like pre Machida era), and most of Jon Jones hype comes from the fact that he fought and beat guys who had star status years before he even got into this sport, but who were / are no longer relevant to the sport anymore.

I agree with you, Jones came into the division at the perfect time, and he resume is wayy overrated, but the guy is legit still, but c'mon, Dan fucking Henderson at 43yrsold was about the get a title shot at Jon Jones, doesnt that tell us abit about how terrible the LHW division is at the moment?

also 2 of Jones title defenses were MW's. Dont get me wrong Jones is legit and the Chael/Vitor fights weren't his choice, but they get counted as Great title defenses because for the sole reason that Chael and Vitor are big names?

Dont get me wrong, Jon Jones is a great fighter, but I just think his run is a combo of perfect timing of undersized LHW's and on the downside of their careers fighers.

Also the only guy that matched Jones for size and age Gus arguably beat Jones. LHW hasnt yet completed its transition of gaining young fresh talent with proper LHW statures.

 

[The Accuser]

LHW is the 2nd shallowest division now, and it's better now than it has been in years. What you say is true. That doesn't mean Bones is not impressive, he is, but the myth is more than the man in my opinion.

The LHW division of today is much better than the one he has almost all his wins in.

This.

But I would say that during much of Jones' run LHW was better than MW, thus making it only the third most shallow division. Only recently has MW become deeper than LHW when some misplaced MWs moved into their appropriate division.

 

[UJustGotChaeld]

This.

But I would say that during much of Jones' run LHW was better than MW, thus making it only the third most shallow division. Only recently has MW become deeper than LHW when some misplaced MWs moved into their appropriate division.

I agree. I think MW was weaker when Jones started. Currently LHW is weaker, they flip flopped.

 

[Docile]

Troll account?


Fact is that those are the toughest guys in the division, you can go on all you want about how they didn't do well after facing Jones, but who didn't they do well against?

Bader and Glover both beat Rampage, so now he "looks bad" , but how does that affect Jones in any way when he already destroyed both Bader and Glover?
And Rashad has had some off nights, but in a career as long as his is, that's only natural, and he still had time to outwrestle Phil Davis, submit Chael Sonnen who, using fantastic technique, finished shogun, and then Jon outmaneuvered Belfort, who has been destroying some of the greatest prospects in MMA and a legend in Henderson.

To me it seems like when these guys lose you go "Oh I guess that means he had that weakness all along and really wasn't that good" while when they win you go "yeah but look, the guy they just won against just lost, so how good can that guy really be?"

If you give great weight to every loss and discredit every single win, then EVERYONE is LOOKING BAD. when that is clearly not the case.

After Jones loses to DC (if that were to happen) you're gonna be in this thread going, SEEEE I told ya'll!! .. Please tell me your understand how fucking retarded that is?

They can't all be constantly unstoppable, sometime's they'll look bad, but if you assume they look bad because they've secretly always been terrible and not because they're facing someone genuinely better, then guess what. Everyone will eventually suck and you'll be missing out on what it means to truly believe in a fighter with all its ups and downs.

 

[TheScorpionDude]

Most of them weren't actually relevant at the time they fought Jon Jones, but were still regarded as huge celebrities in the MMA community. If you look at their performances and records leading up to / and after their fight with Jon Jones I think it's pretty obvious that a lot of the Jon Jones hype came from the fact that he was beating guys with 'big names' but hardly the toughest competition at the time.

IMHO Jose Aldo has faced a lot tougher competition than Jon Jones, yet most of you couldn't even name a single super star other than him in the entire FW division, so it diminishes his accomplishments a lot.

But to call LHW "murderer's row" in the current MMA world is just silly. Back in the Pride days when you had Wanderlei, Vitor, Shogun, Liddell, Rampage, Rashad etc. LHW was the true "murderer's row." But in modern day MMA it's really not. If you look at the top 10 in LHW division the skill gap between the #10 and #5 guys is huge.

Yet if you look at Middle Weight, the top 10 division is absolutely stacked. Every single fighter looks like they could be the next MW champion.

TL;DR LHW division hasn't been murderer's row for years (like pre Machida era), and most of Jon Jones hype comes from the fact that he fought and beat guys who had star status years before he even got into this sport, but who were / are no longer relevant to the sport anymore.

I feel the same way about LHW.

Same thing happened when they used Nog, Randy and CC at HW. That's why JDS and Cain are falling apart now and Brock and Carwin are nowhere to be found. We proclaimed them as GOATS, New breed .... while all of them combined don't have as many fights as CC. They are built weaker.

We really don't appreciate Fedor, CC and Nog as much as we should. They lasted way longer than today's fighters.

 

[phatron]

Troll account?

pretty sure he is 99silva

 

[moreorless87]

I feel the same way about LHW.

Same thing happened when they used Nog, Randy and CC at HW.

I don't think it was quite THAT bad as I don't think any of the guys Jones beat had dropped off to the degree Nog and Crocop had. However I do think you can also point to size being a significant issue with Jones arguably the first of the truly elite large LHW's on the scene. He's not THAT oversized for todays LHW division but he clearly is a lot larger than Rashad, Lyoto and Shogun.

You wonder what would have happened if say Gus had been at his current level 2-3 years earlier, I think its very likely he would have beaten everyone Jones has.

The problem(or rather an opening for promoters to exploit with hype) MMA has I would say is that there still a culture of "listing names" on a guys record to show his achievement with little though to when the fights happened. If you look back to the early/mid 00's this kind of made sense(outside of questionable decisions) as so much of the talent base had entered the sport together so pretty much everyone was in their prime together. Over the post Pride years though things have changed a lot, todays MMA has a lot more declining stars who's names on your win list aren't worth nearly what they would have been 5-10 years earlier.

 

[Gavster]

That's a sad conclusion.
Paving the way for the Jones fought cans as a future argument because you don't like him?

 

[Shogun Rising]

205 is a different division now than before.

Now a lot of those guys are showing serious age and wear. So at first glance it can look like a shallow division. Though I think Sugar Rashad still has something in his tank. I don't think he's shown signs of demise other than a lackluster "fight" with Rogerio where he all but beat himself with just inactivity and not caring.

Meanwhile, there just weren't guys like current Jones, Gustafsson, or Cormier in the mix before.

Take Shogun for example. He's historically struggled against larger guys. If we take his career up to before the Jones fight. Forrest, Coleman, Overeem, and Diabate. He either had some struggle in those fights or just lost.

The thing about these guys, though, is that they all had glaring holes in their games. Diabate had/has no ground game, and after being a bit frustrated early in the fight against Diabate Shogun took him down and knocked him out. Overeem's chin, ground, and cardio. Overeem came out like a demon both fights and was pretty effective using his size to overwhelm Mauricio until Mauricio got him down and fucked him up both times. Coleman had that crazy win over Shogun, but in the rematch Shogun was tired while winning one-sided rounds one and two before eventually struggling in the third before Coleman's cardio and lack of striking got him knocked out.

Even with Forrest, Shogun came out throwing fireballs first fight and got winded out, got beat up by the larger Forrest who had better conditioning. In the rematch, he hung back and was totally measured, and he very quickly took advantage of the dramatic speed advantage to knock him out.

Vera is after the Jones fight, but he's from the generation before so I'll mention it. Shogun struggled with him handily, as well. He's a bigger dude and poses some problems on the feet. Mauricio immediately was looking to exploit Vera's wrestling like Thiago and Randy wanted to do, as well, and it turned into a mad brawl and Vera ultimately couldn't hang and got knocked out.

These big dudes now aren't bringing these glaring deficiencies into fights. Now Johnson still probably has some submission holes in his game if you get him down, and maybe Gustafsson does but I doubt it, but Johnson has some exemplary takedown defense so it's a limited deficiency.

Gustafsson is this fast and sharp giant dude with excellent footwork and excellent boxing, who showed superb takedown defense against one of the best wrestlers in MMA in Jones, and who has shown a great chin as well as some serious skill in the clinch. There's nothing to exploit here. There's not a button a guy just has to keep pressing until it works.

Cormier. This dude's thick as a tree and is just a monster at everything he does. Handled Dangerous Dan like a cop ragdolling a pissy teenager. Dan was pushing Fedor around in the clinch in their fight. Dan's stout as they come and while he's aged, Cormier chucked him through the air like nothing. No weaknesses in this dude.

Then Jones. Maybe the greatest ever. Teixeira has shown quality everything up until the Davis fight. Davis is a pretty big dude with great strength but who is still exploitable maybe—but surprised everyone with the Teixeira fight, and Davis managed multiple takedowns on Lyoto. Johnson's a killer with great TDD. And all these dudes are just bigger guys than the old guard. They're superior athletes. They get more push and movement out of their muscles. They all train like professionals and come in well-conditioned unlike guys like Rampage or Mauricio Shogun who no one knows what they're going to get fight-to-fight.

It's just a new age in historically the most prolific division in MMA, and many of the old guard have at least contemplated dropping to 185 or have become shells of themselves, or both.

 

[Rhood]

The only reason why the LHW looks weak right now is because most of the fighters from the division are retired or fighting in another organization.
Babalu, Liddell, Couture, Ortiz, Bonnar, Griffin, Irvin, Jardine, Rampage, Hamill, Vera, Thiago Silva, Houston Alexander

But we still have:
Gus, LiL Nog, Shogun, Henderson, Johnson, Cormier, Rampage, Davis, Glover, Maldonado, Manuwa, OSP, Evans

 

[randomalias]

The LHW division of today is much better than the one he has almost all his wins in.

That is a whole lot of truth.

 

[fourtyounce48]

Most of them weren't actually relevant at the time they fought Jon Jones, but were still regarded as huge celebrities in the MMA community. If you look at their performances and records leading up to / and after their fight with Jon Jones I think it's pretty obvious that a lot of the Jon Jones hype came from the fact that he was beating guys with 'big names' but hardly the toughest competition at the time.

IMHO Jose Aldo has faced a lot tougher competition than Jon Jones, yet most of you couldn't even name a single super star other than him in the entire FW division, so it diminishes his accomplishments a lot.

But to call LHW "murderer's row" in the current MMA world is just silly. Back in the Pride days when you had Wanderlei, Vitor, Shogun, Liddell, Rampage, Rashad etc. LHW was the true "murderer's row." But in modern day MMA it's really not. If you look at the top 10 in LHW division the skill gap between the #10 and #5 guys is huge.

Yet if you look at Middle Weight, the top 10 division is absolutely stacked. Every single fighter looks like they could be the next MW champion.

TL;DR LHW division hasn't been murderer's row for years (like pre Machida era), and most of Jon Jones hype comes from the fact that he fought and beat guys who had star status years before he even got into this sport, but who were / are no longer relevant to the sport anymore.

jones is a great fighter but what you say does have a lot of truth to it.

 

[DizzyYeahYeah]

You have 2 anti-Jones threads on the front page. You should try and make it 3.

 

[_Keyser_Soze_]

Thinly veiled hate thread. How original...