The entire rap genre transformed at the exact same time the entire rock genre transformed

[Crimson Glory]

white and native musicians did too.

Should it really matter?

I wouldn't feel too insecure about White folks making their mark on the genre. Like Country, it's pretty much synonymous with White men.

African Americans have made the majority of musical styles, they founded them, and they should be proud about that. The rest of us are just doing our own take on it and making our own contributions.

 

[Jimmy Jazz]

Should it really matter?

I wouldn't feel too insecure about White folks making their mark on the genre. Like Country, it's pretty much synonymous with White men.

African Americans have made the majority of musical styles, they founded them, and they should be proud about that. The rest of us are just doing our own take on it and making our own contributions.

They did not do it on their own though. With out White western cultural contributions, they wouldnt have made the music they did. For instance, the piano. I'm not white btw.

 

[Possum Jenkins]

This is good to hear.

Not only will Gangsta Rap go away, but people aren't killing eachother at the same rates as they used to.

Win/Win.

Maybe something to do with BLM?

Nah, BLM is a movement to address police brutality.

The Freakonomics guys stated that a big part was Roe v Wade. A bunch of unwated, mostly poor babies that would have been born in the 70s and would have been in their late teens-early 20s by the 90s, simply weren't born because abortions were available.

 

[Crimson Glory]

They did not do it on their own though. With out White western cultural contributions, they wouldnt have made the music they did. For instance, the piano. I'm not white btw.

I mean sure, the instruments were made by white people.

The electric guitar was made by a white guy, Marshall Amplification ofcourse was made by a white guy.

But those are just the tools, not the art form.

100% of the Rock Stars of the 60's and 70's were heavily influenced by Jazz and Blues too, which are Black art forms.

It starts with them.

 

[Jimmy Jazz]

I mean sure, the instruments were made by white people.

The electric guitar was made by a white guy, Marshall Amplification ofcourse was made by a white guy.

But those are just the tools, not the art form.

100% of the Rock Stars of the 60's and 70's were heavily influenced by Jazz and Blues too, which are Black art forms.

It starts with them.

instruments are an integral part of the art form. especially piano. not just a tool. you can't compare a piano to a Marshall amplifier, which just makes noise. You can't compose a song with just an amplifier. If African Americans made music with only the instruments they invented, it would just be banjo music and spiritual vocal music( which was a biproduct of white christianity).

the english language, the western tonal system, music theory, etc all come from white people. besides that african american music was influenced by latin american and Caribbean music from almost the beginning. It is not like they closed themselves off from outside influences.

 

[Crimson Glory]

instruments are an integral part of the art form. especially piano. not just a tool. you can't compare a piano to a Marshall amplifier, which just makes noise. You can't compose a song with just an amplifier. If African Americans made music with only the instruments they invented, it would just be banjo music and spiritual vocal music( which was a biproduct of white christianity).

the english language, the western tonal system, music theory, etc all come from white people. besides that african american music was influenced by latin american and Caribbean music from almost the beginning. It is not like they closed themselves off from outside influences.

Blues hadn't existed in White culture, that's uniquely African, the tri tone was avoided in alot of music up to that point. I can't think of, outside of Holts "Mars" or in Vaughner's(sp) music it being used much in classical either. But even so, no one had used the flat fifth like the Blues up to that point.

Like I said before, we made our contributions to that art form and took it other places with Blues Rock and Psychedelia, but the genesis came from the African American population.

 

[Steve-French]

I mean sure, the instruments were made by white people.

The electric guitar was made by a white guy, Marshall Amplification ofcourse was made by a white guy.

But those are just the tools, not the art form.

100% of the Rock Stars of the 60's and 70's were heavily influenced by Jazz and Blues too, which are Black art forms.

It starts with them.

instruments are an integral part of the art form. especially piano. not just a tool. you can't compare a piano to a Marshall amplifier, which just makes noise. You can't compose a song with just an amplifier. If African Americans made music with only the instruments they invented, it would just be banjo music and spiritual vocal music( which was a biproduct of white christianity).

the english language, the western tonal system, music theory, etc all come from white people. besides that african american music was influenced by latin american and Caribbean music from almost the beginning. It is not like they closed themselves off from outside influences.

Are you dense? Nothing you've posted is a counter to the fact that the people who created rock were African American.

http://mentalfloss.com/article/30288/5-candidates-first-rock-n-roll-song

It started as an African American sound and culture, much like rap did.

Imo it's kind of bullshit to give any one race credit when it comes music genres. It's all universally tied together and starts from the first style of music that has been historically recorded which is Gregorian Chant (325-600 AD)

From there it goes to the Renaissance, then the Baroque era, which leads to Opera, then down the line we end up with composers like, Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven.

We are now well into a time of orchestrated music with wood winds, brass, percussion, and strings, instruments that were primarily a product of Europeans. Then in 1860 The slave trade introduces West African rhythms, work songs, chants and spirituals to America, which strongly influence blues and jazz.

So yes African Americans did have a very strong hand creatively in what shaped Rock N' Roll, but it's not like it all just fell out of the sky and started with them.

 

[Jimmy Jazz]

Are you dense? Nothing you've posted is a counter to the fact that the people who created rock were African American.

http://mentalfloss.com/article/30288/5-candidates-first-rock-n-roll-song

It started as an African American sound and culture, much like rap did.

puerto ricans were in hip hop since the beginning. it isnt just an african american thing, just like rock n roll.

 

[Rvd Slmr]

almost the exact same time Nirvana came out with some hard shit, Smells Like Teen Spirit, that didn't sound like ANYTHING anybody had ever heard before....and transformed THEIR genre too?!

But what really changed thanks to them? What great band came after Nirvana and was really inspired by it? Also when Nevermind was released, both black and death metal already existed, so it wasn't anything near the hardest band around. To compare to something more mainstream and famous than extreme metal, Nevermind was released five years after Slayer's Reign in Blood.

 

[burningspear]

Appetite for Destruction came out in '87 though.

And Rock is pretty much dead now, whereas Hip-Hop goes from strength to strength.

 

[Steve-French]

Appetite for Destruction came out in '87 though.

And Rock is pretty much dead now, whereas Hip-Hop goes from strength to strength.

Strength to Strength? Not even close... I can appreciate some good production, but mumble rap and recycled beats aren't it.

 

[burningspear]

Strength to Strength? Not even close... I can appreciate some good production, but mumble rap and recycled beats aren't it.

I was more referring to popularity and sales, Hip-Hop dwarves Rock these days.

 

[Jimmy Jazz]

Like I said before, we made our contributions to that art form and took it other places with Blues Rock and Psychedelia, but the genesis came from the African American population.

If African American music was totally insulted from outside cultural influence that would be true. They were influenced by outside cultures.

 

[Steve-French]

I was more referring to popularity and sales, Hip-Hop dwarves Rock these days.

 

[Steve-French]

Gotcha

 

[ChrisCross]

I just realized something I never thought about before. I was in my Will Smith thread saying the song I posted was released in 1988. And if you're old enough you'll remember almost all rap songs back in 1988 had a very similar style to what Fresh Prince and Jazzy Jeff had. And they were mostly east coast guys on the radio back then. But then NWA released Straight Outta Compton that same year 1988, and transformed rap forever.

After NWA came out, nobody wanted to hear corny, positive hip hop. We wanted to hear about that thug life. So rap became darker and harder. Edgier. More gritty and realistic. The WHOLE rap genre had to adapt or die off. Even MC Hammer released Pumps In The Bump trying to adapt to the new style (didn't work. Still was a decent song though.).


OK, so now look at the rock genre. There's no argument that after Nirvana came out with the Nevermind album, the entire rock genre was changed forever. And I mean transformed completely. Remember we went from 80's hair metal like Van Halen and positive rock like Eddie Money or Bon Jovi......we went from THAT....to depressing lyrics, screaming, guitar distortion, more realism, a harder sound, and much more edge.


ok check this out:


Nirvana came out in 89 with the Bleach album. But Nevermind put them in the entire countries ear. Nevermind was released in 1991.


So how crazy of a coincidence is it that NWA came out with some hard shit, Straight Outta Compton, that didn't sound like ANYTHING anybody had ever heard before, and transformed their genre........at almost the exact same time Nirvana came out with some hard shit, Smells Like Teen Spirit, that didn't sound like ANYTHING anybody had ever heard before....and transformed THEIR genre too?!



NWA came out in 1988 but I don't think they blew up nationwide until around 1990...maybe late 89. Nirvana came out in 1988 but blew up when Teen Spirit started airing, which was 1991.

Both these bands came out and made almost everybody else in their genre obsolete. And with both bands the transformation of their ENTIRE genre was complete by 1994.
By 1994 in RAP - you didn't hear styles like Fresh Prince, LL Cool J, Run DMC....those styles were DONE. By 94 you heard Dr. Dre, Snoop, Tupac, Biggie, Warren G, Bone thugs, etc.
By 1994 in ROCK - you didn't hear styles like Eddie Money, Van Halen or Bon Jovi. No you heard Stone Temple Pilots, Pearl Jam, Alice in Chains, Smashing Pumpkins, etc.




Another similarity is that Nirvana created two new subgenres of music....grunge and alternative rock. And that in turn created 2 new SUBCULTURES OF PEOPLE, and social trends, fashion, attitudes.
NWA created a new subgenre of hip hop, Ganster Rap. Which in turn created a new subculture of people, social trends, fashion, and attitudes. Both subcultures wore a lot of flannel shirts too, and baggy pants, and beanies. It was weird.
Your right 1988 was the year everything changed and with Rap it was the West Coast Gangster Rap of N.W.A. which I enjoyed at the time but saw a change in attitude with Rap fans thinking they were gangster and th

I have no point here, lol. I just find it interesting and a little weird that both rap and rock changed in almost the exact same ways, starting at nearly the same time, and both being completed by 1994. There are a LOT of similarities there that I never noticed. So what's up with that? Why did that happen with both genres and why did it happen with both genres at the same time? And it goes deeper than the music genres changing. If you remember, those changes in rap and in rock changed our entire culture! Or at least the subcultures of rap fans and rock fans. Black people started dressing in flannel, big baggy pants, beanies, dew rags, etc. And rock fans started dressing in flannel (another similarity!) shirts, fairly baggy pants, beanies, skate shoes, etc.

Your right 1988 was the year everything changed and with Rap it was the West Coast Gangster Rap of N.W.A. which I enjoyed at the time but saw a change in attitude with Rap fans thinking they were gangster and that look, sound changed it forever sadly as it's still going on today as look at that bollocks in England with Grime and Drill music and also you had the black political side of Public Enemy which again were a great band but got sick of it by mid 90s and the whole Puff Daddy and 2Pac bollocks made me hate Rap music and now it's influenced world music where rapping in there native tonque and having some big butty women in a video makes it a tune and I can't tell the difference be it Jamaican Dancehall and Trinidadian Soca never mind Reggaeton and African music plus I think it's a rule white people shouldn't Rap lol.
From 1982-1987 I liked the whole Electro sound of African Bambaataa and World Class Wreckin Crew and the Miami and Detroit sound etc but looking a Dr Dre fashion he wasn't wearing the gangster look back in 1986 a year before he started N.W..A. HAHA.

 

[Langstarr]

I just realized something I never thought about before. I was in my Will Smith thread saying the song I posted was released in 1988. And if you're old enough you'll remember almost all rap songs back in 1988 had a very similar style to what Fresh Prince and Jazzy Jeff had. And they were mostly east coast guys on the radio back then. But then NWA released Straight Outta Compton that same year 1988, and transformed rap forever.

After NWA came out, nobody wanted to hear corny, positive hip hop. We wanted to hear about that thug life. So rap became darker and harder. Edgier. More gritty and realistic. The WHOLE rap genre had to adapt or die off. Even MC Hammer released Pumps In The Bump trying to adapt to the new style (didn't work. Still was a decent song though.).


OK, so now look at the rock genre. There's no argument that after Nirvana came out with the Nevermind album, the entire rock genre was changed forever. And I mean transformed completely. Remember we went from 80's hair metal like Van Halen and positive rock like Eddie Money or Bon Jovi......we went from THAT....to depressing lyrics, screaming, guitar distortion, more realism, a harder sound, and much more edge.


ok check this out:


Nirvana came out in 89 with the Bleach album. But Nevermind put them in the entire countries ear. Nevermind was released in 1991.


So how crazy of a coincidence is it that NWA came out with some hard shit, Straight Outta Compton, that didn't sound like ANYTHING anybody had ever heard before, and transformed their genre........at almost the exact same time Nirvana came out with some hard shit, Smells Like Teen Spirit, that didn't sound like ANYTHING anybody had ever heard before....and transformed THEIR genre too?!



NWA came out in 1988 but I don't think they blew up nationwide until around 1990...maybe late 89. Nirvana came out in 1988 but blew up when Teen Spirit started airing, which was 1991.

Both these bands came out and made almost everybody else in their genre obsolete. And with both bands the transformation of their ENTIRE genre was complete by 1994.
By 1994 in RAP - you didn't hear styles like Fresh Prince, LL Cool J, Run DMC....those styles were DONE. By 94 you heard Dr. Dre, Snoop, Tupac, Biggie, Warren G, Bone thugs, etc.
By 1994 in ROCK - you didn't hear styles like Eddie Money, Van Halen or Bon Jovi. No you heard Stone Temple Pilots, Pearl Jam, Alice in Chains, Smashing Pumpkins, etc.




Another similarity is that Nirvana created two new subgenres of music....grunge and alternative rock. And that in turn created 2 new SUBCULTURES OF PEOPLE, and social trends, fashion, attitudes.
NWA created a new subgenre of hip hop, Ganster Rap. Which in turn created a new subculture of people, social trends, fashion, and attitudes. Both subcultures wore a lot of flannel shirts too, and baggy pants, and beanies. It was weird.


I have no point here, lol. I just find it interesting and a little weird that both rap and rock changed in almost the exact same ways, starting at nearly the same time, and both being completed by 1994. There are a LOT of similarities there that I never noticed. So what's up with that? Why did that happen with both genres and why did it happen with both genres at the same time? And it goes deeper than the music genres changing. If you remember, those changes in rap and in rock changed our entire culture! Or at least the subcultures of rap fans and rock fans. Black people started dressing in flannel, big baggy pants, beanies, dew rags, etc. And rock fans started dressing in flannel (another similarity!) shirts, fairly baggy pants, beanies, skate shoes, etc.

Bro, don’t u know? Rap IS rock n roll. Just look at all the rap acts in the R’n’R HOF.

 

[Cantalope]

The Pixies, The Melvins, The Replacements, and Husker Du were all better than Nirvana.

 

[Monte Moku]

Ronald Reagan appointed Mark Fowler and Dennis Patrick as chairmen of the FCC during his presidency and both were strong proponents of deregulating the broadcast industry from 1981 - 1987. During this time media conglomerates were working to loosen the bonds of the government, extending TV licenses from three years to five years, single corporate owners were now allowed to own 12 stations from the previous 7 (only five in the VHF range, however) and the government was increasingly lobbied to let there be more competition for TV and radio. All of this came to a breaking point when the Telecommunications Act of 1996 was passed. Basically, this completely deregulated the broadcast industry, and most especially made radio stations and wavelengths a dime a dozen for corporations. Remember when you could drive into a new city and hear their local bands? This is around the time that sort of thing stopped happening. From there, mainstream music became more homogenous and commercialized, leading to the weird flavor of rock/pop, and rap/pop, and all the ugly sounds we know today. Some blame Clinton since it was passed when he was in office, some blame Reagan because he appointed the two men who got the ball rolling. I think it was inevitable that it was going to happen no matter the politics. Shit like that is what gave us Outlaw Country when Nashville was trying to keep up an image, Punk was born from a similar reaction to 'corporate' music and so on.

 

[ChrisCross]

Imo it's kind of bullshit to give any one race credit when it comes music genres. It's all universally tied together and starts from the first style of music that has been historically recorded which is Gregorian Chant (325-600 AD)

From there it goes to the Renaissance, then the Baroque era, which leads to Opera, then down the line we end up with composers like, Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven.

We are now well into a time of orchestrated music with wood winds, brass, percussion, and strings, instruments that were primarily a product of Europeans. Then in 1860 The slave trade introduces West African rhythms, work songs, chants and spirituals to America, which strongly influence blues and jazz.

So yes African Americans did have a very strong hand creatively in what shaped Rock N' Roll, but it's not like it all just fell out of the sky and started with them.

What a fantastic and well informed post and world music history should be taught in schools as most kids in the UK thinks music is only from the USA and England but the history of countries like Ghana, Brazil, Cuba, Trinidad etc etc etc proves otherwise.