Movies The Empire Strikes Back is the greatest sci fi movie of all time

@Madmick

bro...help me school these youngins.

I’m thinking a lot of you guys are going to disagree with me for arguments sake all the PhD level geeks in the berry surely I’m not the only one that knows ESB is the greatest ever...

and the first person that Mentions Avatar gets their geek credentials suspended
I'm entirely with you on this being one of the greatest movies in film history, but I'm among those who regard Star Wars as fantasy, not Sci-Fi. Star Trek is Sci-Fi. Star Wars is fantasy with a sci-fi-ish theme. It shits on Lord of the Rings in the fantasy subgenre.

No movie has been more influential over the past half century. Ironically, in the opinion of the generation of elite countercultural American filmmakers for whom this was their crowning achievement, this has been to the detriment of cinema.

Blade Runner hasn't been as profoundly influential on all film, but it has on its own subgenre of Sci-Fi. I was recently reading a review of the failed YouTube Red series, Origin, and the review had a line that went something like, "...and in accordance with the unwritten law that every Sci-Fi made since Blade Runner has to look at least a little like Blade Runner..." I nodded my head. It's unbelievably cool, too, how it achieved this otherworldly effect that was so sui generis it is now completely the opposite of sui generis. Because the interior building where the toymaker's home is which the cyborgs adopt as their own is, in fact, arguably the most filmed building in the history of major motion pictures. It's a famous historic hotel. Watch the astonishing documentary Los Angeles Plays Itself to see this. It's awesome. You'll immediately recognize you've been seeing the same space over and over and over throughout your life without realizing it was always the same space. I now find myself finding it in other films not shown in the documentary. I look for it in new films.
 
Blade Runner hasn't been as profoundly influential on all film, but it has on its own subgenre of Sci-Fi. I was recently reading a review of the failed YouTube Red series, Origin, and the review had a line that went something like, "...and in accordance with the unwritten law that every Sci-Fi made since Blade Runner has to look at least a little like Blade Runner..." I nodded my head. It's unbelievably cool, too, that it achieved this otherworldly effect that was so sui generis it is now completely the opposite of sui generis. Because the interior building where the toymaker's home is which the cyborgs adopt as their own is, in fact, arguably the most filmed building in the history of major motion pictures. It's a famous historic hotel. Watch the astonishing documentary Los Angeles Plays Itself to see this. It's awesome. You'll immediately recognize you've been seeing the same space over and over and over throughout your life without realizing it was always the same space. I now find myself finding it in other films not shown in the documentary. I look for it in new films.

I think if you look back in terms of the biggest influence on film makers visually Tarkovsky's Solaris is arguably the most influenical sci fi. Before that sci fi generally meant 2OO1 style modernism but Solaris pretty much created the idea of the cluttered "used future" and then Lucas helped to popularize it with Starwars, even the corridors of the Falcon look like those in Solaris.

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I do suspect there was alot of influence between Lucas and Scott's films in that era as well, filming in similar studios, using alot of the same FX people and likely playing off of the films themselves. Alien I think you see takes that used industrial future a step further and then Empire in Cloud City pushes it further before Blade Runner does even moreso and then Jedi takes Blade Runners eastern exoticism for Jaba's Palace.
 
I think if you look back in terms of the biggest influence on film makers visually Tarkovsky's Solaris is arguably the most influenical sci fi. Before that sci fi generally meant 2OO1 style modernism but Solaris pretty much created the idea of the cluttered "used future" and then Lucas helped to popularize it with Starwars, even the corridors of the Falcon look like those in Solaris.

81949e36302edc55c2e2157b679a6647.jpg


I do suspect there was alot of influence between Lucas and Scott's films in that era as well, filming in similar studios, using alot of the same FX people and likely playing off of the films themselves. Alien I think you see takes that used industrial future a step further and then Empire in Cloud City pushes it further before Blade Runner does even moreso and then Jedi takes Blade Runners eastern exoticism for Jaba's Palace.
No.

This is about more than mise en scene. This is about the big ideas. This is about narrative structure and the industry itself: the summer blockbuster season; the rise of the action adventure film; the rise of films set in entirely fictional worlds; the rise of special effects as an imaginative industry within an industry rather than mere optical tricks (epitomized by Lucas/Spielberg colleague Henson); the merry band of misfits against the evil empire; the notion that this evil empire is us-- ourselves as the bad guys; the transposition of the family saga as a metaphor for culture writ large, as in Coppola's Godfather, to a children's arc of heroic triumph; the transposition of the binary white hat / black hat of the western genre which ruled previous decades to this same arc that ironically devoured the western genre itself.

Furthermore, Solaris is a brilliant film, but influence on this level requires greater popularity, and despite the love it gets from critics and film professors, it just hasn't penetrated the public consciousness on this scale. It would be like arguing Proust has been more influential than Dickens.
 
No.

This is about more than mise en scene. This is about the big ideas. This is about narrative structure and the industry itself: the summer blockbuster season; the rise of the action adventure film; the rise of films set in entirely fictional worlds; the rise of special effects as an imaginative industry within an industry rather than mere optical tricks (epitomized by Lucas/Spielberg colleague Henson); the merry band of misfits against the evil empire; the notion that this evil empire is us-- ourselves as the bad guys; the transposition of the family saga as a metaphor for culture writ large, as in Coppola's Godfather, to a children's arc of heroic triumph; the transposition of the binary white hat / black hat of the western genre which ruled previous decades to this same arc that ironically devoured the western genre itself.

Furthermore, Solaris is a brilliant film, but influence on this level requires greater popularity, and despite the love it gets from critics and film professors, it just hasn't penetrated the public consciousness on this scale. It would be like arguing Proust has been more influential than Dickens.

You were talking specifics of visual influence rather than the industry as a whole which obviously Starwars can't really be touched(for better or worse) on by any film of the last half century or longer in creating the summer family action blockbuster.

I was pointing out that Starwars visual influence was also very significant in a fashion thats perhaps talked about less these days exactly because it became so totally all persuasive. With Solaris I said influential to film makers as arguebly the prime originator of the look and I'd be shocked if Scott and Lucas hadn't taken a lot from it but I'd agree its Starwars popularity that made the grubby used industrial future the standard look for sci fi from that point onwards.

What I think Blade Runner did was create a much wider world, not just grubby industry but all manner of influences and styles, the Frank Lloyd Wright style egyptian/mayan stone work, Mead's modular modernism, the early 80's power dressing, the far eastern and arabic elements, the smoky noir revivalism, etc. Its one of the most densely designed and varied films ever made.
 
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So what sci fi movie realistically tops Empire strikes back?

It's certainly in the Top 5, and probably Top 3.

What sets it apart from the rest of the Star Wars movies is its small-scale character-driven narrative, rather than the 'Destroy the giant planet-destroying space station that no less than three of the other movies use.' I'd say only Episode 3 is its equal, or damn close to it.

As far as other SciFi movies, if there's two I would say are better, its Aliens and Terminator 2. But still saying Ep5 is 3rd behind only those two movies still is the highest of praise.

1. Aliens
2. Terminator 2
3. Empire Strikes Back
4. Revenge of the Sith
5. Predator
 
I’m gonna say something that’s going to piss a lot of people off. The TS avatar is from a movie that is overrated on these forums. Decent movie. Heavy handed symbolism and doesn’t say anything that hasn’t been said. Star Wars is targeted at teenage boys. I put it on equal footing with Dragon Ball Z

without thinking about it to hard, I would say Bladerunner is the best SciFi movie
 
You were talking specifics of visual influence rather than the industry as a whole which obviously Starwars can't really be touched(for better or worse) on by any film of the last half century or longer in creating the summer family action blockbuster.

I was pointing out that Starwars visual influence was also very significant in a fashion thats perhaps talked about less these days exactly because it became so totally all persuasive. With Solaris I said influential to film makers as arguebly the prime originator of the look and I'd be shocked if Scott and Lucas hadn't taken a lot from it but I'd agree its Starwars popularity that made the grubby used industrial future the standard look for sci fi from that point onwards.

What I think Blade Runner did was create a much wider world, not just grubby industry but all manner of influences and styles, the Frank Lloyd Wright style egyptian/mayan stone work, Mead's modular modernism, the early 80's power dressing, the far eastern and arabic elements, the smoky noir revivalism, etc. Its one of the most densely designed and varied films ever made.
Oh, I'm sorry, I misinterpreted you. I didn't realize you intended to argue Solaris as more visually influential on the Sci-Fi subgenre rather than the more influential film than The Empire Strikes Back on the industry overall.

I suppose that's arguable, but I still wouldn't favor it. Solaris lacked all the elements of cyberpunk noir that have taken hold of all Sci-Fi (the darkly lit alleys, the neon lights everywhere including the omnipresence of corporate advertising, the endless smoke/fog/steam, the endless longshots conveying an imposing sense of scale, etc.).

You don't just have to look at Origin. Look at all recent big budget Sci-Fi streaming or TV. Look at Star Trek: Discovery or Picard. Look at Altered Carbon. Look at Black Mirror, The 100, The Expanse, Sense8, Orphan Black, Almost Human, the list goes on and on. Hell, even look at animated Sci-Fi. How many vignettes in Love, Death, Robots looked like Blade Runner?

It's true in movies, too. Even the MCU universe (arguably also fantasy) and Transformers which both more closely the modernistic aesthetic of Kubrick's 2001 had many stretches that looked far more like Blade Runner than anything I can recall from Solaris.
 
I’m gonna say something that’s going to piss a lot of people off. The TS avatar is from a movie that is overrated on these forums. Decent movie. Heavy handed symbolism and doesn’t say anything that hasn’t been said. Star Wars is targeted at teenage boys. I put it on equal footing with Dragon Ball Z

without thinking about it to hard, I would say Bladerunner is the best SciFi movie
Pretty heavy compliment DBZ is citizen kane for non simps

also you arent giving avatar the credit it deserves. Probably went over your head.
 
It's not.. "George Lucas himself declared that "Star Wars isn't a science-fiction film, it's a fantasy film and a space opera" in 2015."
It doesnt matter. Its still better than any movie your talkin about in any context. Its a better porn movie than most porns. Cos its goddamned Empire strikes back,and you bow down like we all bow down,mr jose beehive sir
 
Oh, I'm sorry, I misinterpreted you. I didn't realize you were intended to argue Solaris as more visually influential on the Sci-Fi subgenre rather than the more influential film than The Empire Strikes Back on the industry overall.

I suppose that's arguable, but I still wouldn't favor it. Solaris lacked all the elements of cyberpunk noir that have taken hold of all Sci-Fi (the darkly lit alleys, the neon lights everywhere including the omnipresence of corporate advertising, the endless smoke/fog/steam, the endless longshots conveying an imposing sense of scale, etc.).

You don't just have to look at Origin. Look at all recent big budget Sci-Fi streaming or TV. Look at Star Trek: Discovery or Picard. Look at Altered Carbon. Look at Black Mirror, The 100, The Expanse, Sense8, Orphan Black, Almost Human, the list goes on and on. Hell, even look at animated Sci-Fi. How many vignettes in Love, Death, Robots looked like Blade Runner?

It's true in movies, too. Even the MCU universe (arguably also fantasy) and Transformers which both more closely the modernistic aesthetic of Kubrick's 2001 had many stretches that looked far more like Blade Runner than anything I can recall from Solaris.

To make us sound even more elitest to the OP its more of a situation like Charlie Parker and John Coltrane I'd say, could be argued Parker was the more revolutionary who obviously strongly influenced Coltrane but after that point alot more people were probably looking to Coltrane than Parker.

Again though I think Blade Runner is the more diverse film, the industrialial grubbiness is a large part of it but the noir, the eastern exoticism(rather than the more traditional Russian elements of Solaris), etc means thats alot of quite diverse films can draw on different elements of it.
 
Again I don't think the idea of sci fi as a genre really works with modern cinema, maybe it did in the mid 20th century were you had a culture around films and especially books of a certain style but in films over the last 40-50 years sci fi is really more of a setting for a load of different styles of film.
 
Honestly wouldn't even crack my top 10

Never really got into the star wars films. I did like the E Woks though.
 
Interstellar smokes it

the watch and the bookshelf? over Luke I'm your father?
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*edit after reading the rest of the thread, I must clear up that I understood the context of the watch and the bookshelf and still wouldn't choose it over Empire. Nolans a stud tho, Matt Damon was cool
 
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the watch and the bookshelf? over Luke I'm your father?
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I don’t know man, Star Wars just doesn’t do it for me. I really like most of the conceptual sci fi’s. I like exploring an alternate reality that’s somewhat believable. Matrix, interstellar...I really liked that recent movie the platform even though it isn’t super highly regarded among critics I enjoyed the concept. I just didn’t get lost in Star Wars. Maybe I was too young to appreciate it when it came out, and it’s now dated. Idk man
 
I don’t know man, Star Wars just doesn’t do it for me. I really like most of the conceptual sci fi’s. I like exploring an alternate reality that’s somewhat believable. Matrix, interstellar...I really liked that recent movie the platform even though it isn’t super highly regarded among critics I enjoyed the concept. I just didn’t get lost in Star Wars. Maybe I was too young to appreciate it when it came out, and it’s now dated. Idk man

My girl who was born on the cusp of the genX, millenial cut off shares the same sentiments.

The glory of the Empire lies in the fact that they allow Darth Vader, one of the low key all time great villains of any genre let his hair down so to speak and it happens in the best way possible without making it pretentious. Plus there were no ewoks or Jawas and the cheesy droids each take a severe beating at one point or another. Plus Boba Fett. Come on bro
 
My SciFi pick would be 1. Blade Runner and 2. Carpenter's The Thing which was released like a week later. 3. The Matrix. Empire is up there. Not a lot wrong with that movie. the Hoth battle is just totally epic and the movie only takes about 15 minutes to get you there.

The Thing is also my number 1 GOAT Horror flick. Such an excellent film
 
My girl who was born on the cusp of the genX, millenial cut off shares the same sentiments.

The glory of the Empire lies in the fact that they allow Darth Vader, one of the low key all time great villains of any genre let his hair down so to speak and it happens in the best way possible without making it pretentious. Plus there were no ewoks or Jawas and the cheesy droids each take a severe beating at one point or another. Plus Boba Fett. Come on bro
Yup, I’m a late millennial.

I saw clone wars in a theatres and shit, but it wasn’t my cup of tea. The Matrix was the first sci to movie that sucked me in. I was at some kind of a week long soccer tournament, on my own, just passing time. And this guy I was hanging out with was like “wait you’ve never seen the movie?!?” Popped it in, said “enjoy the journey”. 3 hours later my mind was fucking blown. I went home and found every sequel and similar movie and spent that whole summer trying to watch as much as I could.

I wasn’t sucked into Star Wars like that. It’s just preference man. Like I said, I don’t think it was terrible or anything I just think it’s one of those films that sits on a throne of nostalgia.
 
Yup, I’m a late millennial.

I saw clone wars in a theatres and shit, but it wasn’t my cup of tea. The Matrix was the first sci to movie that sucked me in. I was at some kind of a week long soccer tournament, on my own, just passing time. And this guy I was hanging out with was like “wait you’ve never seen the movie?!?” Popped it in, said “enjoy the journey”. 3 hours later my mind was fucking blown. I went home and found every sequel and similar movie and spent that whole summer trying to watch as much as I could.

I wasn’t sucked into Star Wars like that. It’s just preference man. Like I said, I don’t think it was terrible or anything I just think it’s one of those films that sits on a throne of nostalgia.

Yeah for sure. The Matrix was the greatest experience I've ever had at the theater. I was on green gel tabs with a big group of friends. I think I broke the arm rest from how tight I was gripping it. I remember the film had a greenish tint to it and when I left the theater my mind was well blown to pieces so much that I had to reset before I didn't think we were all still in the Matrix.
 
Y’all can hate on me all you want. I always felt Star Wars was overrated and drawn out much more than it needs to be for the story and content it delivers. Its frustrating for me to try and watch. Is it entertaining? Of course. Was it good for its time? Yeah. But it hasn’t aged well, I feels Star Wars fails like many other series from not having any real satisfying conclusion.

Empire just “good”?!?! For all the multi million dollar cgi of the six films that followed all pale in comparison to the first three

Lucas abandoned realistic modeling and set pieces for IMO poor cgi in episodes 1-3 Disney used great cgi in episodes 7-9 and they too fail to capture ANY of the emotions, drama,pacing,ACTING, suspense, realism(go head flame away) the cultural worldwide iconic impact of Vader,Luke,Han, Leia, Chewbacca,Yoda.

and you could even argue Palpatine, and Lando are iconic
 
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