The Definitive "HANDS UP!" Thread

[Discipulus]

So shouldn't you utilize these big gloves that modern day boxing have since that is what we wear in compeition? Wouldn't that be the most optimal way to train if you're training boxing? Big glove, small glove, either way, a high guard, incorporated with good head movement, foot work and defensive techniques is still the most ideal style for most people, but maybe you're different?

Under what logic? I named 3 fighters as examples, RJJ, Hamed and Gamboa, are these guy's not ****y when they fight? In which part of what i said states that any fighter who has his hands low is automatically a ****y fighter? All i said is that i enjoyed watching fighters with a certain style, and those fighters happen to have their hands low. Jesus do you have to be so goddamn defensive against every single poster that disagrees with you?

Gloves are smaller in boxing competition than in training. You can get too used to being able to keep punches out with a pair of 16 ozers on your hands, and then they start sneaking through when your guy is hitting you with 10s on.

Also, this kind of stuff is especially useful for MMA, because those gloves don't do a damn thing to block punches when you shell up. You basically have to cover the whole front of your face with your forearms to make a tight guard effective, and that opens you up to hooks and body shots galore, as well as seriously limiting your vision.

That's one of my main gripes with the guard as a means of blocking incoming punches. It blocks your vision to hold your gloves like that, especially so with the bigger boxing gloves. The other main gripe is that it completely nullifies your offense, which in turn puts more pressure on your already compromised defense, because a smart opponent will catch onto your habit of covering up, tap your gloves with light punches, and then angle off and smash you with a right hand in the side of the head. You can't stick a jab out there to ward someone off when you resort to covering your face for defense.

It also results in a version of "sparring partner syndrome," because you'll see guys with this as their primary defensive reaction fighting in patterns. You punch, I'll block your punches. When your combination is finished, I'll punch and you block those. Maybe one of us will get lucky and knock the other out. I hate seeing fights where guys basically stand in front of each other and take turns trying to throw punches through their opponent's gloves, rather than boxing them. That stuff is not good boxing, plain and simple. And I see it as a byproduct of relying overmuch on a high guard for defense.

Oh, and I respect the fact that you're a pretty cool-headed guy in these heated online arguments. Nuke does get a little defensive a little too quickly, but in his defense, just about everyone who comes into his critique threads immediately disregards his request in the first post and tells him to put his hands up. It still happens, even after like six or seven threads. I can imagine getting irritated and a bit oversensitive at that.

While I get that some guys like the low guard for the added movement/they can relax some it just seems like one of those things (this might be a logical fallacy so I am sorry ahead of time if this is wrong) that when you are young... it's fucking great. However, it also seems like one of those tendencies that when you get older, and your reflexes begin to slow or your chin becomes shot that it will just leave you out on a silver platter to get stomped.

Like RJJ is one that comes to mind as a guy that got away with having a low guard for a long long time and did well. And then he started getting "over the hill" as an athlete and we have all seen what happened. I know there are older guys like Vitali (41) can get away with it but most of them have a jab so damn nasty that it keeps people away/scare to swarm in it seems.

Again, I might be looking at this the wrong way but it seems when you start out learning and such to start with a higher guard (chest-chin level so to speak, not necessarily up by the temples) so that when your reflexes begin to slow there is an option of a more protective style to fall back on.

The exact same thing happens to guys who rely on their gloves to block punches. The solution is not to hold one's gloves higher, but to learn how better to defend yourself with positioning, footwork, and other tools like a good jab. This is why cagey veterans armed with a couple decades of accumulated ring smarts (think Mike McCallum, Sugar Ray Robinson, Bernard Hopkins, Juan Manuel Marquez, Jersey Joe Walcott, Archie Moore) are able to dominate younger opposition, without holding their hands up high. They're all students of the game, and they have styles that maximize their defensive abilities.

It's all about your stance, your weight distribution, and your position relative to your opponent. You learn to control these things, and you'll never have to shell up for defense.

 

[Discipulus]

Love all the boxing experts in these threads who have apparently never watched a boxing match that took place prior to 1990, or seen an old-schooler fight. I mean, really. No one's watched B-hop fight? No one's watched Floyd fight? Marquez?

I think everyone just assumes that hand position are the end-all be-all of defense, and so they assume that anyone who can keep their hands lowered must be a freak athletic specimen. When really it just comes down to good boxing.

Edit: Also lol at the fact that this is maybe the third or fourth time someone has said you should keep your hands up because someday you might face someone better than you. Only two things happen when you face someone better than you: you get lucky, or you lose. Hands up don't mean shit if you can't beat someone's superior positioning.

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

Except that's only part of the story.
During the era of smaller gloves (and bare-knuckle), shots to the head/face were far rarer. This was due to the possibility of injury to the hands then punching for the head. Compared to today the vast majority of attacks were to the body.
Therefore, because there was a minimal risk of getting punched in the face, they did not need to have their guards as high as they were looking more to protect the body. It's that simple, low risk of getting a punch to the face, less need to protect the face.
With the advent (and introduction) of the "newer" gloves, shots to the head/face increased dramatically because, and this is important, your could punch for that area with a minimal risk of hand injury. As such the "hands-low" guard of old started to fall out of favour towards a higher guards because there was a new risk.

Similar to the way a boxers stance is different to a thai fighters as boxers don't have to worry about being kicked. And a thai fighters stance is different to a MMA fighter as thai fighters don't have to worry about takedowns.
Small/no gloves ==> very few shots to the head ==> minimal need for high guard
Larger gloves ==> increase in shots to the head ==> guard lifted

The fact is you can't be knocked out by a punch to the chin if they can't hit your chin. Now you can talk about movement and positioning all you like but, at some point, you WILL meet someone who has better movement/positioning, you WILL meet someone who is faster, you WILL fatigue and slow down, someone WILL get an unexpected shot in. And, at that point, if your glove is between his fist and your chin, you're not going to get knocked out by a punch to the chin, because the glove will deflect the blow.
However if you're so adamant that a hands-down approach is the way to go, go right ahead with it. But when one of the above happens and your chin gets lit up then have fun watching the stars.

Personally I dislike the VERY high guard (like the peek-a-boo guard) as I feel it has too much impact on your visibility. However I firmly advocate at least having your hands chin-height as an insurance policy.

But then again it's whatever works for you and what you've been taught. If you're happy with a guard below your chin then, for want of a better phrase, knock yourself out. I prefer my gloves at least chin height, it's also the guard that is taught by my coach (who, in his time, was a world-level muay-thai fighter). If you disagree, so be it.

Then again, there's also the variables in style depending on what you have to defend against, hence why boxing, thai, tkd, MMA and so on have different postures and defensive stances.
At the end of they day, find what works for you and stick with it. Clearly nobody is going to change your mind however Id' have thought, by now, that you'de have realised you're not going to change anyone elses mind, no matter how many times you repeat the same things.
It's almost as if, at this stage, you just want the last word, as if that will somehow mean your opinion is right because you flogged the dead horse for longer than anyone else.

What? Have you seen footage of old school guys? Maybe in the bareknuckle day, yes, shots to the chin is rare. But if you watch guys like SRR in that era, they punch to the head all the time. With the gloves, and the handwrap and proper roll of a fist, there should not be any risk of injury at all. Protect the face is always the priority no matter the era. Even the bareknuckles era the stance is much more focus on pulling the head back out of the line of fire than not worry about the head because the rarity of headshot. Also, in the bareknuckles day there are kicks, body locks and other things that is much more closer than MMA than modern boxing.

And with the newer gloves, yes it create better fist protection. But it also cause proper defense via positioning and footworks to fade, as many untrained guys start to train other guy and use the hands up as the main defense without actually knowing anything better. It is easy to teach, but at the same times create bad habits and overtime, a change of what it is to be "correct" boxing

The thing about this is that you only focused on the hands aspect of it. I do learn how to defend with the hands like parrying, BUT not resort to high guard . I never said i will completely disregard the hands as a defensive measure. I just merely said that using the hands as high guard for defense is misguided.

Also, the way you use the argument that someone can sneak an unexpected shot in just because they are faster and better movement, positioning is a bit silly. You said as if it is relied on luck. I understood what you said, but it seemed a bit laughable. EDIT: yes Discipulus, this is like the 4th times or so. C'mon people, you guys can do better than this.

The only reason i keep going at this thread again because how people sometimes keep resurrecting this thread with arguments that already refuted. I have a passionate hate about this. It is the third times this thread already get resurrected and it brings an itch to my eye.

 

[Bay Area]

I just figured it out.

Nuke wants to follow old school boxers because they wore smaller gloves, and Nuke wants a career in MMA, which also uses small gloves. OK. Makes sense now. Seriously, I really did just figure it out. Not being sarcastic at all.

 

[Discipulus]

That's what's up. Old-timers knew they couldn't rely on their hands to block everything. MMA guys, for the most part, have yet to figure it out, though their gloves are often even smaller.

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

I just figured it out.

TS wants to follow old school boxers because they wore smaller gloves, and TS wants a career in MMA, which also uses small gloves. OK. Makes sense now. Seriously, I really did just figure it out. Not being sarcastic at all.

 

[Strykerx]

Did i say holding your hands low has no place in boxing? All i said is that the notion that holding your hands up to protect your chin is lazy is the stupidest thing i have ever heard from anyone who trains in a gym. That's the most basic thing you'll learn in any gym/school, be it muay thai or boxing. Which trainer will tell guys who just started training "okay guys i want you to keep your hands low, just look at guys like Joe Louis and SSR, i want you guys to have a stance like that". Hell no, the first thing you learn from any coach is to keep your hands up!

I think you and the TS got things in reverse, if you don't even have the basic discipline to start off keeping you hands up, i don't see how you'll be able to become proficient in the more advanced defensive techniques later on, master the basics 1st.

You guys mentioned fighters who over rely on a high guard and struggle later on when facing tougher opposition who can exploit that, well on the flip side if you look at someone like Yuriokis Gamboa who is a freak of an athlete, top notch reflexes, speed, power etc. Early on in his career he fought with his hands at his waist and was still knocking guys out. But when he stepped up in competition, he started getting knocked down due to his recklessness. Even someone like a Gamboa realizes that having his hands up is important, this is evident from his more recent fights with his guard way up, of course once in a while he still enjoys showboating and keeping his hands low, BUT he has become so much more defensively responsible by simply keeping his guard up.

I have nothing against guys that hold their hands low, in fact i enjoy watching fighters with styles like that, i.e. RJJ, Gamboa, Hamed etc.

You already outlined his problem, he didn't have a good understanding of fundamentals. He relied on his athleticism, not positioning. It's no wonder he started going down hill and needed to change up his guard.

 

[SummerStriker]

I just figured it out.

TS wants to follow old school boxers because they wore smaller gloves, and TS wants a career in MMA, which also uses small gloves. OK. Makes sense now. Seriously, I really did just figure it out. Not being sarcastic at all.

ooohhhhhhhhhh

 

[Strykerx]

There seems to be a big misconception that Nuclearlandmine and Discipulus continue to correct. But I think there is a huge misunderstanding that isn't being spoken about. A lot of the Muay Thai/Kickboxing guys are pro hands up and a lot of the boxer guys are hands down. You guys are looking at different eras.

It makes more sense to keep your hands up in any form of Muay Thai then boxing. Since the art of Muay Thai uses a lot of kicks, punches are secondary. At least in the Muay Thai I've train and seen around at gyms. Boxers end their combinations with a jab or hook, etc. Nak Muays end it with kicks most of the time.

That's not to say having a lower guard (not hands down to the waist ) is bad for Muay Thai but there is a fundamental difference. One can not expect a nak muay to develop or even have the same mindset as the boxer, mma fighter. Therefore it's much harder to utilize a lower guard. Karate on the other hand is different hehe. In boxing, mma, you can slip, weave, etc and combo with a punch (see how having you hands lower helps in these situations?). You don't exactly have those options in Muay Thai and Karate where one has to be more distant and the inside game is less punch focus.

Yes glove size changed up boxing, but also good trainers didn't pass down their knowledge. Even in the 1940's and after there trainers complaining about fighters not knowing the craft. Since the 80's there have been more coaches who never learn the craft, they were just uncles, fathers, etc that threw a towel on their shoulder and started teaching. Hence where modern boxing is today.

Look at the past, why do so many boxing greats and champs of old have huge numbers of win and losses. Where in modern boxing guys retired after 20,30 or even 40 fights. Sure they fought more often, sure some of those wins are regular joes. But why are they not suffering from severe damage like todays modern guys? You would think with hands low that they would take more damage, that they couldn't even get to 100 fights. That's pro fights I'm not even talking about amateurs. Remember back then amateurs didn't have head gear, so they took shots like any pro would.

These fighters also worked a full time job sometimes 2 and fought on their off days or after work. They didn't suffer as much damage as todays fighters and they have less hand injuries.... why? It's because knowledge was lost. Imagine if Muay Thai was taught without the Teep. Imagine if you were never taught to check kicks instead you were taught to just strengthen your legs to endure the pain.

If you're talking a beating and your coach calls out to keep your hands up and stay there well you my friend are not learning proper fighting. Clinching of any kind (even thai plum), circling, even punching your way out is better than shelling up and taking a beating. That's only a style not a universal rule. Hands being up is fine as long as their not glued to your cheeks 24/7, Why block when you can dodge a punch, arms have been broken by blocking. That's the main thing all the hands down guys are trying to say.

I hope this ends the discussion.

 

[Bay Area]

ooohhhhhhhhhh

Lol. You too I see

 

[Sinister]

Except that's only part of the story.
During the era of smaller gloves (and bare-knuckle), shots to the head/face were far rarer. This was due to the possibility of injury to the hands then punching for the head. Compared to today the vast majority of attacks were to the body.
Therefore, because there was a minimal risk of getting punched in the face, they did not need to have their guards as high as they were looking more to protect the body. It's that simple, low risk of getting a punch to the face, less need to protect the face.
With the advent (and introduction) of the "newer" gloves, shots to the head/face increased dramatically because, and this is important, your could punch for that area with a minimal risk of hand injury. As such the "hands-low" guard of old started to fall out of favour towards a higher guards because there was a new risk.

Similar to the way a boxers stance is different to a thai fighters as boxers don't have to worry about being kicked. And a thai fighters stance is different to a MMA fighter as thai fighters don't have to worry about takedowns.
Small/no gloves ==> very few shots to the head ==> minimal need for high guard
Larger gloves ==> increase in shots to the head ==> guard lifted

The fact is you can't be knocked out by a punch to the chin if they can't hit your chin. Now you can talk about movement and positioning all you like but, at some point, you WILL meet someone who has better movement/positioning, you WILL meet someone who is faster, you WILL fatigue and slow down, someone WILL get an unexpected shot in. And, at that point, if your glove is between his fist and your chin, you're not going to get knocked out by a punch to the chin, because the glove will deflect the blow.
However if you're so adamant that a hands-down approach is the way to go, go right ahead with it. But when one of the above happens and your chin gets lit up then have fun watching the stars.
Personally I dislike the VERY high guard (like the peek-a-boo guard) as I feel it has too much impact on your visibility. However I firmly advocate at least having your hands chin-height as an insurance policy.

But then again it's whatever works for you and what you've been taught. If you're happy with a guard below your chin then, for want of a better phrase, knock yourself out. I prefer my gloves at least chin height, it's also the guard that is taught by my coach (who, in his time, was a world-level muay-thai fighter). If you disagree, so be it.

Then again, there's also the variables in style depending on what you have to defend against, hence why boxing, thai, tkd, MMA and so on have different postures and defensive stances.
At the end of they day, find what works for you and stick with it. Clearly nobody is going to change your mind however Id' have thought, by now, that you'de have realised you're not going to change anyone elses mind, no matter how many times you repeat the same things.
It's almost as if, at this stage, you just want the last word, as if that will somehow mean your opinion is right because you flogged the dead horse for longer than anyone else.

I think you're misconstruing History a bit here. The bare knuckle era fighters didn't get hit less in the face (if they even did), merely because they didn't have gloves. What fighter is afraid of the consequences of punching someone? By your logic, Uriah Faber would have quit in his bout with Mike Brown when he broke both his hands, even with gloves. And the early boxing gloves were barely more protective than that, I don't think they even WERE 4 ounces, and they weren't tempered with foam padding, they were either buckskin, or leather filled with horse hair. I have a pair of horse hair gloves here at my Gym, they don't give that much of an impression they'd protect a whole lot.

The reason there was less punching to the face is obvious is you look at actual boxing diagrams from that era. It's because the head was always the furthest thing from the opponent when not attacking:

Note the proximity of the legs as opposed to the heads. They're closer to each other than it would seem if you only looked at them from the waist up. Thus, the first thing to enter hitting range is going to be the body. Not the head. The emphasis was to make the head the most difficult thing TO hit. This was ingrained into their technique. No one who fought was especially conservative about hitting a guy in the face. If they could reach your face, rest-assured they would knock your teeth out or flatten your nose. That said, as has been indicated earlier in the thread, a lot of this sort of teaching became lost, but not necessarily because fighters got somehow more brave. Trainers passed on without their knowledge moving, Al Silvani tried to take up Jack Blackburn's mantle, but he himself never did much outside of taking over Joe Louis' career. And I don't think Silvani ever built a fighter from the ground up. Eddie Futch and Brendan Ingle are probably the last two trainers I can remember who emphasize "defense without the use of the hands," to the degree where they said so on television. And they also just happen to be two of the few guys who trained more than one Champion with particular styles. Futch had many, Joe Frazier and Ken Norton (neither relied on their hands even in the gloved era) his two most renowned, and Ingle having had Bomber Graham and Naseem Hamed.

Nacho Beristain's fighters keep their hands up high, but as has been demonstrated in another thread, it's not for defense. All of these trainers are some of the utmost reputable of the gloved era, whose knowledge resembles the principals of older times. As the teachings of such men fade, you end up with watered-down substitutes that will suffice. Sure, wearing gloves, gluing them to your face can suffice if you don't know how to do anything else. But even Teddy Atlas (whose knowledge comes from D'Amato) warns that when doing this it's easy to become hand-cuffed by a smart opponent. He noted numerous times that as Tyson himself lost head-movement and got more lazy in the ring, this happened to him. You also end up with changes in positioning. Nowadays rather than heads far apart, legs close together, when people think of boxing they think more like this:

And this:

Heads closer together, legs further apart. And if anyone recalls that infamous bout between Holyfield and Tyson, the whole thing got started because they both kept leading with their upper-bodies and Holyfield repeatedly headbutted Tyson. Something Holyfield was known for throughout his career, and both of these guys are on people's top Heavyweights of all time lists because of their prominence. Yet they're still subject to deficiencies in positioning.

So to sum up: people started getting hit in the face more when they lost the priority of keeping their own heads further away from the opponent. When the head becomes the closest thing to a guy, hitting him there is relatively easy. Do gloves help? Sure, but if smaller gloves were a detraction, MMA fighters wouldn't be aiming for the face, and that's almost where they exclusively aim everything.

 

[Gregolian]

The exact same thing happens to guys who rely on their gloves to block punches. The solution is not to hold one's gloves higher, but to learn how better to defend yourself with positioning, footwork, and other tools like a good jab. This is why cagey veterans armed with a couple decades of accumulated ring smarts (think Mike McCallum, Sugar Ray Robinson, Bernard Hopkins, Juan Manuel Marquez, Jersey Joe Walcott, Archie Moore) are able to dominate younger opposition, without holding their hands up high. They're all students of the game, and they have styles that maximize their defensive abilities.

It's all about your stance, your weight distribution, and your position relative to your opponent. You learn to control these things, and you'll never have to shell up for defense.

I'll be honest, the only stand up training I have is Muay Thai and my instructor is always smacking the lead hand to have it up near our cheek height even if it's extended out in front some and not up against the face so I am just doing it based on that.

Also, I admittedly haven't gotten to watch much boxing either. I have seen guys like Walcott, Dempsey, and others but it was so long ago when I was younger that I don't remember much. Like I said in my posts, I was kind of working on assumption for some of it (especially the getting older and can't rely on reflexes thing).

 

[NumptyGolf]

Excellent explanation sinister

I'm working on changing my stance to be less front footed and I'm doing this by ****ing my hip towards my opponent, which has the effect of causing me to bend my rear leg a bit and my upper body (including head) to shift backwards, putting me off the centreline as well as putting a bit more space between my head and my opponent.

The amount of space created is not insignificant. I always thought I had slow reactions, but making changes to this stance have allowed me to see what is happening a whole lot better.

Having said that, I also keep my hands up, rear hand on cheek or in front of face, and forward hand extended out just below eye level.

 

[SAAMAG]

Limp Biskitz thoughts on boxing:

Move in, now move out
Hands up now hands down
Back up back up
Tell me what you're gonna do now

Breath in now breath out
Hands up now hands down
Back up back up
Tell me what you're gonna do now

Keep rollin' rollin' rollin' Rollin'......

 

[Pugilistic]

Nacho Beristain's fighters keep their hands up high, but as has been demonstrated in another thread, it's not for defense.

Do you mind pointing me to this thread? I don't recall this thread. Even though Marquez always has his guard up, I don't really remember him blocking punches with it. He seems to elect moving out of the way most of the time.

Here's what I wanted to add to the thread. Saw this fight on the boxing forum.



Two guys with two distinctive styles, Munoz with the typical high guard, front heavy style, and Kamegai with his hands down and weight on his back. In case you don't wanna watch the fight (I suggest you do. It's pretty good), Kamegai beats the crap out of Munoz and stops him. Kamegai also rarely gets hit clean. He doesn't get hit much at all really.

Kamegai almost always has his hands at chest level and instead moves his feet and head a lot, and always looking to counter punch. Munoz's high guard does nothing for his defense because Kamegai hits him when Munoz tries to punch and leaves opening. The same doesn't happen for Kamegai because when he punches, his head is not in front of Munoz. There's even one point where Kamegai doesn't get hit despite being against the ropes and having his hands down.

According to the commentators, Munoz apparently expected Kamegai flat footed and stand right in front of him and be there to be hit. I think he was right about Kamegai being flat footed and being in front of him (at times), but he wasn't there to be hit because his positioning was better. From what I can tell, Kamegai doesn't seem all that athletic or fast either. This is sound technique.

That being said, Kamegai does put up his guard at times on the inside when he's not moving around. But this is also when he is the least effective. There is also one point where having his hands up actually saved him from eating a right hand. And Munoz's best punch is when Kamegai ate a right hand because he mistimed a counter and had his hands down.

So my conclusion from this fight is:
It's better to have good positioning and balance and movement than having your hands up.
Having your hands down is better for evading punches and countering off of defensive movements. It's actually conducive to better defense.
But for whatever reason, if one can't get better positioning or can't move, putting your hands up is a defensive resort.

 

[Sinister]

I don't know how you missed it, but page 2:

http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f11/tile-exercise-boxing-2255705/index2.html

 

[Gregolian]

Limp Biskitz thoughts on boxing:

Move in, now move out
Hands up now hands down
Back up back up
Tell me what you're gonna do now

Breath in now breath out
Hands up now hands down
Back up back up
Tell me what you're gonna do now

Keep rollin' rollin' rollin' Rollin'......

All I get when I hear that or see the lyrics is the Undertaker riding his bike to the ring in the WWE.

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

Wow, what a wonderful wall of texts. That cleared up many of my misconceptions about old school boxing too. I always thought in bareknuckles era the focus is on body punches and throw because how easy it is to break your hand with your opp's jaw, so it is only reserved for the sure-fire knockout punch. I guess i'm reading the wrong place then

Also, the fight posted above is awesome. Although Kamagai get hit more that i'd like him to be, he is pretty close to how i want to fight. Even when on the rope he is surprisngly calm as well, just countering the other guy's pummel.

Gotta work on my disposition, nawl

 

[DivineComedy]

Imagine if you were never taught to check kicks instead you were taught to just strengthen your legs to endure the pain.

Kyokushin Karate has checks, but it was funny to read this because most don't check in favor of attacking back. Just reminded me of that. haha

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

Kyokushin Karate has checks, but it was funny to read this because most don't check in favor of attacking back. Just reminded me of that. haha

I know that San Shou guys prefers to absorbs the kicks in order to create counter opportunities. Different system different aims i guess.