The debate I have been noticing

[Jagcorps_esq]

One more idea here;


Its racism, American culture put more weight on striking and dont respect the "submission" or the time to set it up for a win. "What the hell, those Brazilians introducing this shit into the fight game? Its manly to punch".

KOs are easy in that it dosnt hurt, you just go to sleep. But a good heel hook, your gonna feel that for more than days.

Holy Jesus.

Can we please stop playing this card? I don't know one damn person that cares what color Anderson is or where the damn art came from.

Why to hell does is have to be racism to consider Silva a douche? I hate Sonnen too. I love BJJ.

This is just taking a concept that is perhaps true of a few idiots and pushing it way too far man.

I mean, wasn't this same forum lit up with threads praying for Maia? Did we all forget the Silva was a BJJ black belt then too?

You're respected around here....you need to guard your words more. How are we going to finally kill the beast of "isms" if we keep bringing them up at inappropriate times?

 

[GJJ fighter]

Sonnen lost plain and simple. Anderson Silva is the better fighter. All in all if no one steps in and no referees then sonnen goes home with a broken arm and anderson silva goes home with a few bruises and pretty sore. Its idiotic to say who the better fighter is. That is jiu jitsu, you weather the storm until an opportunity knocks then you capatalize. Very well played by anderson silva. Great fight. Sonnen is a great fighter, but you cant ask the question who is better when there was a tap not a decision. Congrats to Silva on a great win... better luck to sonnen next time.

Move GSP up for one fight... GSP vs Anderson Silva... now that would be a fight worth watching.

 

[Explosion Man]

Here's my honest opinion on the situation. Let me be clear first and foremost that I am not a huge Anderson Silva fan nor am I a huge Chael Sonnen fan.

I thoroughly believe that Anderson Silva is just THAT good. I honestly believe he played with Chael Sonnen for over 4.5 rounds and finally decided to slap the triangle on then. He telegraphed that submission for over 4 rounds. He had numerous opportunities to finish the fight with up to that point. I counted atleast a dozen armbars and triangles he could have had prior to the one he got. I think Chael Sonnen was nothing but a toy for Anderson Silva. We've seen Anderson do this in his last few fights. I think he didn't want to make it as obvious this time due to the fact that he was reamed for it last time. If he wanted to finish that fight in the first round, I firmly believe he could have. He is THAT DAMN GOOD.

Sonnen deserves no rematch. Any wrestler who wallows on top of someone for 4.5 rounds and can't finish is not deserving of a rematch. Vitor is next. My opinion.

Your delusional.

 

[randomg1t]

Holy Jesus.

Can we please stop playing this card? I don't know one damn person that cares what color Anderson is or where the damn art came from.

Why to hell does is have to be racism to consider Silva a douche? I hate Sonnen too. I love BJJ.

This is just taking a concept that is perhaps true of a few idiots and pushing it way too far man.

I mean, wasn't this same forum lit up with threads praying for Maia? Did we all forget the Silva was a BJJ black belt then too?

You're respected around here....you need to guard your words more. How are we going to finally kill the beast of "isms" if we keep bringing them up at inappropriate times?

good post.

 

[EvanKelly**]

Jim Rome talked about it on his nationally syndicated show 2 days ago.

A) Sonnen did alot of smack talk but he did everything he said he was going to do, except win the fight.

B) He gave the arguably p4p best fighter in the world his most difficult fight in the ufc, in fact hadn't Silva had a string of boring fights where he seemed disinterested because his opponent had little to offer him? That was not the case this go round.

I don't care if Sonnen is a champion or not, I don't reflect a pro fighters success on myself. So if a wrestler wins, great, if a BJJ guy wins, fine, if a Dim Mak guy wins, cool. What they do means nothing in terms of what I can or cannot do.
What I like is interesting fights that spur debate, or have great techniques or are hotly contested in the ring. Sonnen and Silva gave us all of that.

As far as the damage Silva has taken we assume alot just based on appearance. The stats show he was struck nearly 300 times and with 8 "power shots", some guys just don't show it on their face. In fact I don't think I have ever seen Silva with a scratch on him, we cannot assume in all the fights he has ever had that he has not been hit hard.

Anyway an immediate rematch would be good for the UFC in order to avoid a loss for either man. Right now people are interested, case in point the fight happend what 5 days ago? We are still talking about it.

Except for some technical discussions we are not talking about many of the other fights with the exception of the Hughes fight. But that is just to go over the choke he used.

What does that tell you? It is like Howard Stern said, "They either love me or hate me, either way they are listening."

Agreed. It seems the only people who don't want an immediate rematch are anderson's fans or people who should have been opposed to ALL immediate rematches thus far.

If shogun/machida and frankie/bj deserve immediate rematches because they were close fights and big $$$ makers, then I don't see why Silva v Sonnen 2 shouldn't be setup immediately.

Stoppages and decisions aren't that black and white. There can be close fights that end in stoppage or decision. There can also be one sided beatings that end in stoppages or decisions. It just depends on the styles of the fighters involved.

 

[EvanKelly**]

I think that speaks to how dominant a champion Silva has been. Sonnen definitely put up a good fight, but he lost in the way that we all (including Silva) thought he would. I'd rather see an Okami rematch.

Why?

 

[xMikeyX]

It seems a lot of Andersen's fans are content when he fights nobody. They just want to retire him.

 

[knoxpk]

One more idea here;


Its racism, American culture put more weight on striking and dont respect the "submission" or the time to set it up for a win. "What the hell, those Brazilians introducing this shit into the fight game? Its manly to punch".

KOs are easy in that it dosnt hurt, you just go to sleep. But a good heel hook, your gonna feel that for more than days.

I don't think it has anything to do with racism. I like a good submission finish. I likely would be saying the same thing had Anderson caught Sonnen with a flash KO strike too had everything else about this fight remained the same.

 

[El Beebo]

Why?

Because Okami/Silva ended controversially. Sonnen/Silva didn't.

Also, regarding someone else's post, Machida/Shogun's first fight was very close and controversial, which warranted the rematch. And giving a former champ a rematch (especially one that had the belt as long as Penn) is pretty standard. But Sonnen was a challenger. And he was finished.

 

[Oak]

Sonnen showed heart, but the man was sloppy and deserved to lose.

I wouldn't mind seeing a rematch just because he is the only man to put Silva in this position, but since Sonnen has no plans on training BJJ, he will just lose again.

To think you can fight MMA without having at least a blue belt level in BJJ is ridiculous. I personally think he is an idiot the way he fought the last round.

 

[hawaiianbjj808]

Um- GSP got destroyed by Serra (in Rd 1) and Serra had to give him a rematch (while Serra was also Hurt and in front of GSP's hometown) - it also sold well-

There will be a rematch because it will make the UFC money- end of thread. I will purchase it as will others.

gsp fought koscheck then hughes before getting his title back

 

[randomg1t]

gsp fought koscheck then hughes before getting his title back

the hughes fight was for the interim title, because serra injured himself.

it's all kind of besides the point. deserves has nothing to do with it. serra didn't deserve to fight GSP in the first place. brock didn't deserve to fight for the title either. hell, werdum most likely didn't deserve to fight fedor.

it's fights people want to see, or the only fights left. everyone should just stop whining about it and enjoy the scraps.

 

[-Montanha-]

You're respected around here....you need to guard your words more. How are we going to finally kill the beast of "isms" if we keep bringing them up at inappropriate times?

Yeah your right, poor choice of words. Wasnt thinking color, but the bias against "Brazilian" race for bringing subs and a whole different way to fight.

 

[Jagcorps_esq]

Yeah your right, poor choice of words. Wasnt thinking color, but the bias against "Brazilian" race for bringing subs and a whole different way to fight.

I'll agree with you that there is a predominant dislike for submissions and "man hugging" as some morons put it.

Admittedly, the first time I saw Royce fight back in '93, I couldn't stand him.

"He's like a spider monkey. What? The other guy quit? WHY? Come on man!"

It took learning the art to really appreciate it's beauty.

P.S. Sorry for being preachy.

 

[TacWar]

First,

I really mostly agreed with the no rematch bit and that immediate rematches should be held for controversy and champions as them being champions deserve their shot back, but even then 1 fight for them to prove they deserve it makes the most sense in my mind. For a challenger that loses after winning most the fight...you lost you have to start over, but still 2 fights and you are probably back there.

As for the damage, I didn't really see any effect on Silva, he got caught flatfooted once and slipped and then slipped when moving backwards it happens, I've been in rings with wrestling shoes and slipped on my ass while getting ready to ref before. The look on Anderson's face was if anything annoyance when taking the biggest shots from sonnen..to the point he dropped his hands and got tagged 3 times, and honestly I expected him to laugh. The GnP didn't seem to have anything, and I didn't see the breakdown of strikes to the head and body, but it seemed like a majority of the shots were "busy work" to silva's body.

I actually thought when Sonnen said what he did about Anderson's BB that Anderson might pull guard on him, and kept thinking that Anderson is just waiting for Chael to lose on the ground. Not what I want to see from the "P4P Champ" but I don't know how I would take someone insulting me how Sonnen did Silva. The thing I take exception with is the next part.

One more idea here;


Its racism, American culture put more weight on striking and dont respect the "submission" or the time to set it up for a win. "What the hell, those Brazilians introducing this shit into the fight game? Its manly to punch".

KOs are easy in that it dosnt hurt, you just go to sleep. But a good heel hook, your gonna feel that for more than days.

nationalism maybe, Racism no. Brazilians are not a race, if you want to argue that people think that Brazilians are all black/of African descent then maybe I'll listen to it, but I'd still go with nationalistic preference over implicit/explicit racism. The fact is also that people know wrestling here and more laymen on mma that I've chatted with think ppl just wrestle when on the ground, but that may be me living in the midwest too. Wrestling and top = control to most fans and even most judges it seems.

Wrestling is by far a white dominated sport and maybe its just the midwest but its a working class to middle class sport as well. Striking sports on the other hand are not white dominated sports, and are over represented by minorities in this country. (go to an amateur boxing tournament for evidence.)

I think the "striking" bias is just because that is what we are used to and that produces more "exciting" moments to fans especially when you see the effect it has on a person, a choke usually someone wakes up within five seconds is on their feet in ten. Just my thoughts tho, I understand race still being a big issue in America (gender also). But in this case I don't feel it applies.

 

[Mumrik]

I haven't seen anyone ask who was the better fighter. I felt for Chael. Like Koscheck he has become that asshole that I for some irrational reason root for, but he lost. After he did so well for the first 23 minutes I felt gutted when he went down like that. I wanted to see him win, but he didn't.

I find it indisputable that

a) Anderson won
b) Anderson won decisively (this was no decision)

It's not like people were screaming for rematches every time big Nog took a beating and came back with a submission. Thus I don't think an instant rematch makes any sense at all. Let's reserve that stuff for controversial fights like Machida/Shogun 1. I don't even think BJ deserves the one he is getting - I had that fight very even.

That said, let's give Chael an immediate title eliminator fight. He didn't get owned or outclassed, so he doesn't need the usual 3-4 fights in my eyes. Sonnen/Belfort would make a lot of sense to me.

 

[Mat Nemesis**]

I haven't seen anyone ask who was the better fighter. I felt for Chael. Like Koscheck he has become that asshole that I for some irrational reason root for, but he lost. After he did so well for the first 23 minutes I felt gutted when he went down like that. I wanted to see him win, but he didn't.

I find it indisputable that

a) Anderson won
b) Anderson won decisively (this was no decision)

It's not like people were screaming for rematches every time big Nog took a beating and came back with a submission. Thus I don't think an instant rematch makes any sense at all. Let's reserve that stuff for controversial fights like Machida/Shogun 1. I don't even think BJ deserves the one he is getting - I had that fight very even.

That said, let's give Chael an immediate title eliminator fight. He didn't get owned or outclassed, so he doesn't need the usual 3-4 fights in my eyes. Sonnen/Belfort would make a lot of sense to me.

chael needs a fight in between another fight with AS. he needs to get better striking and bjj.
think about it, he was on top and almost won with under 2 mins left he gets beat.

he said himself that he is emotionally devastated. he needs time to recoup. i like his chances a lot more if he fights the winner of anderson/vitor.
hopefully vitor beats that ass.

 

[Mumrik]

Exactly. Give him a title eliminator, not a title fight. Especially if Anderson really is out until some time next year. Vitor needs a fight.

 

[Amiro]

but i hope ufc doesnt play the vitor card at the wrong time!

 

[Ninjamurf]

Alright, here's my take...
Red Harvest, Explosion Man called it correctly, you are delusional. In fact I think you were in a basement somewhere sniffing Andersons underwear after smoking a big fat bowl when you wrote that.

Along those lines anyone who says, "this was Anderson's plan all along" is ALSO borderline delusional. He may have wanted to sub Sonnen and eventually he did sub Sonnen. But it was MOST DEFINITELY NOT HIS PLAN to wait until the last 2 minutes of the 5th freaking round. For everyone saying, "it was his plan to sub him," why didn't he do it in the first round? Why not submit him after the VERY FIRST takedown? Prove the effectiveness of BJJ right then and there? Anderson's not dumb and he knows you don't WANT to lay under a dominant wrestler for 22+ minutes. I'll tell you why he didn't, he couldn't. He couldn't sub him in the first round...or the second...nor the third...hell, not even in the fourth round. Chael DOES actually know a thing or two about grappling. It's not like Anderson wouldn't have done it if GIVEN the opportunity, but Sonnen never gave him that opportunity...for 22+ minutes anyway. Kudos to AS for pulling the rabbit out of his hat and subbing Sonnen when the opportunity presented itself. But it was Chael's lack of conditioning/training/discipline/gameplan/whatever that opened that hole. Chael could have very easily layed on top of him and taken the decision...but he wanted to fight. He could have very easily stood up out of Andersons guard and ran around the ring for the last 3 minutes (like AS has done in the past) and taken the decision...but he wanted to fight. Hell, he could have taken a point deduction for running away in the last 3 minutes and still HANDILY won a decision but he didn't.

I'll tell you what he DID do though. He took someone who a lot of people consider one of the best P4P fighters on the planet and he freaking dominated him for 22+ minutes. Not a round, not a flurry, not just a "little bit." He was CRUSHING Silva for most of that fight. He slipped, he got caught, he lost. Happens. I'll be honest, I wasn't a big Sonnen fan before this fight but I am NOW. To do what he did to Silva is just remarkable to me. If it's not remarkable to you I think you're missing something.

Another thing you need to realize about Anderson in regards to the whole "damage" thing is that Silva has a phenomenal chin and some sort of "super skin" or something. He doesn't cut easily and doesn't show the effects of big punches. Make no mistake though Chael was landing some bombs! Maybe he doesn't have Silva's "pointy" elbows or doesn't use them effectively if he does but he was hammering Silva on numerous occasions and he "rocked" Silva STANDING! (When's the last time you saw that?) On the other side, Chael has tissue paper for skin. That guy starts bleeding if he brushes his teeth wrong. Even he admitted pre fight that he was most likely going to come out the other side looking like he'd been in a war.

Do you want to know what the real test of how well Sonnen did will be? What the betting line is for their next fight. Silva was 5 or 6 to 1 favorite on the opening line for this past fight. It came down to about 4.5 to 1 right before the fight. Does ANYONE honestly think Silva will be more than a 2 to 1 favorite for their next fight should it happen? Hell, I think it'll be more like even money. Why? Because everyone saw what Chael was able to do. Everyone knows that he almost won that fight. He took the champ to the limit and was 2 minutes from taking his belt. Maybe Anderson was hurt. Maybe that affected the outcome. If so AS better come out and freaking blast Chael in the first round next time or people are going to continue to question his "greatness."

As for a rematch I would LOVE to see a rematch just because I don't really care to see either one of them fight anyone ELSE right now. Mumrik-you bring up Nog and how no one calls for rematches in fights that he wins by late submission but the HUGE difference is that is what Nog DOES. That is NOT what Anderson does. Anderson comes out and knocks you out. Nog takes a beating while trying to sub you the WHOLE time and, hopefully, eventually, gets one. Seeing Anderson on his back for 20 plus minutes was a completely new experience. And that is one reason why I want to see a rematch. Before this fight a LARGE majority of people thought Anderson would blow Chael out of the water. Sonnen had NO chance. He was outclassed, didn't deserve the fight, etc., etc. Well, turns out that it looks like he DID deserve the fight and he gave Silva the fight of his life to this point. HELL YES I WANT TO SEE MORE OF THAT!!