Media The Day Yuji Shimada & Daisuke Noguchi did Ken dirty... #40

[gono btw]

This series 'The Day...' is about 'extraordinary' moments in NHB/Vale Tudo history.

Today: [JMMA Scene]

Actually, 2 distinct fight sequences are involved here:

@ Pride 22 [September 29, 2002], Randleman vs Michiyoshi Ohara.
Referee: Yuji Shimada

Spoiler: Yuji Shimada

Then:

@ Pride 30 [October 23, 2005], SAKU G. vs Ken.
Referee: Daisuke Noguchi

Spoiler: Daisuke Noguchi

The truth is..Im OK with either Ken bein´ Ruled Out or Ohara gettin´yellow carded...
This was no Pancrase or Vale Tudo, rope escape is a legit no-no..
(Ken somehow always had a problem in 'rememberin´' Fight Configurations, by the way...)

But, some real inconsistency there: Ohara did the same thing and only got a yellow card.

Still, nuthin´really shaddy here, realistically...
It´s more like Pride was still a rookie Org., and pretty disorganized (fighters like Mezger did acknowledge it, too...)

Spoiler: ´The Day...' Threads

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-death-master-stormed-into-the-vale-tudo-scene-24.3882431/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...enio-tadeu-climb-back-in-the-ring-34.3933271/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...ly-really-intimate-with-the-pedro-30.3905323/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...d-to-face-2-opponents-in-the-ring-33.3924541/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...eboxe-kept-flyin´outside-the-ring-32.3913987/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-teeth-kept-flyin´-ivc-31.3907739/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-machida-got-inspired-by-marcelo-tigre´s-drink-29.3901939/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-bjj-jorge-pereira-fearing-a-riot-27.3894033/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-the-hold-at-the-end-of-the-round-28.3896733/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...ary-side-of-the-russian-nhb-scene-35.3853211/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-yamasaki-got-inspired-to-become-a-ref-26.3885363/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...ck-b4-coning-mayweather-this-week-25.3863593/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-nobody-knew-if-sauer-had-tapped-or-not-23.3886109/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-takeo-yano-george-gracie-both-went-lights-out-22.3881991/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...nd-wasnt-cornerin´-the-other-side-21.3873849/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-tank-inspired-coleman-20.3879835/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-little-volk-forgot-to-grapple-in-rings-19.3878575/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-want-usuta-to-tap-against-wallid-18.3877671/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-leg-lock-master-met-manos-de-piedra-36.3876141/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-coleman-went-full-roid-rage-in-brazil-17.3874387/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-saad-muhammad-promised-a-ko-against-tamura-16.3875713/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...k-hands-then-gave-ilyukhin-a-hand-15.3864713/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-kurmanov-the-boxer-submitted-ahmedov-the-jj-14.3874565/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-oleg-forgot-about-the-special-rule-13.3853539/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-sergei-akinin-launched-a-new-mma-gear-12.3872407/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-henzo-had-to-make-alvarenga-tap-several-times-11.3871109/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-amar-suloev-mightymoused-oganov-10.3871769/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-couture-got-played-by-ilyukhin-9.3866571/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-yvel-bit-barkalaev-volk-han-slapped-the-ref-8.3863115/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-tamura-forgot-to-shake-hands-with-yamamoto-7.3863509/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-marco-huas-went-full-babalu-toquinho-6.3852863/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-paulson-got-kimo-ed-badly-5.3831975/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-tap-with-his-foot-on-ronin´s-head-4.3830825/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-rei-zulu-machida-ed-sergio-batarelli-3.3828423/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-igor-showed-his-genuine-side-2.3821765/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-pelé-settled-the-score-in-the-ring-1.3812249/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-the-doc-had-to-check-the-cut-during-the-gnp-36.3941549/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...capoeira-nation-against-chuteboxe-38.3949335/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-sakakibara-asked-chuteboxe-to-kill-saku-39.3955161/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-yuji-shimada-daisuke-noguchi-did-ken-dirty-40.3961513/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-saku-crossed-paths-with-beat-takeshi-kitano-48.3730649/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-ufc-1-was-really-born-41.3964531/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-hoyce-became-world-lhw-champ-42.3972653/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-rings´-ring-became-a-barbershop-43.3981181/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...to-acceptin´-rei-zulu´s-challenge-44.3991669/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...o-hit-a-leg-lock-on-ashikan-judan-45.3998379/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...y-stepped-into-the-ring-at-age-51-46.4008521/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...ly-looked-down-on-hightower-semmy-47.4017645/

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-enson-inoue-disgraced-himself-against-rei-zulu.3878069/

 

[carlos cadona]

I don't like Yuji that much as a ref. I remember back in 2012 he let Roger Huerta get hit head punted into the front row after he was clearly done fighting and I've always disliked him a bit since then.

 

[Buffmeister]

He got DQd?...didnt know that
I thought it was ruled a (t)ko W for Saku...


I know there had been some rule changes with time...but Matsui also did a similar thing when he got beat up by Wanderlei.

When he was leaning all the way through the ropes...while Silva was attacking...and Silva tried to roundhouse kick between the ropes...

 

[gono btw]

He got DQd?...didnt know that
I thought it was ruled a (t)ko W for Saku...


I know there had been some rule changes with time...but Matsui also did a similar thing when he got beat up by Wanderlei.

When he was leaning all the way through the ropes...while Silva was attacking...and Silva tried to roundhouse kick between the ropes...

yeah, you´re right, sorry, was [officially] a TKO, even though Ken was clearly rope-escapin´..

 

[Buffmeister]

yeah, you´re right, sorry, was [officially] a TKO, even though Ken was clearly rope-escapin´..

Always thought Ken took a dive...to collect a paycheck...and then protest the stoppage, to make it more look like a controversal stoppage...

Never thought about the pancrase rule-set....good point.

 

[JacJeanFinger]

I have never seen or known any PANCRASE or Fujiwaragumi fight where someone attempted rope escape while being rocked or knocked down.

 

[gono btw]

I have never seen or known any PANCRASE or Fujiwaragumi fight where someone attempted rope escape while being rocked or knocked down.

That´s the point... Ken wasnt really even rocked, if ya look in slow-mo...
Ken was mentally done, he wanted out.

 

[JacJeanFinger]

Rope escape allows a fighter to be released from submission hold or disadvantageous position on the ground.

It's different from

1) grab to avoid being taken down

Or

2)escape head or entire body outside using space between ropes or mat and rope.

I don't think Ken showed any confusion over fight configuration in this particular bout. His brother always had or pretended to have a problem with that....

 

[JacJeanFinger]

> Ken was mentally done, he wanted out.

And Shimada let him be done with a way out...

 

[gono btw]

Rope escape allows a fighter to be released from submission hold or disadvantageous position on the ground.

It's different from

1) grab to avoid being taken down

Or

2)escape head or entire body outside using space between ropes or mat and rope.

I don't think Ken showed any confusion over fight configuration in this particular bout. His brother always had or pretended to have a problem with that....

Ken obviously knew about the distinct Fight Configurations & rulesets.
I was referrin´ to his back & forth between NHB [UFC] & the Pancrase Fight Configuration, when he attacked the BJJ Guard with a 'Pancrase mindset'...
Anyway, that was a side note.

 

[gono btw]

> Ken was mentally done, he wanted out.

And Shimada let him be done with a way out...

but...different treatments...

 

[JacJeanFinger]

Gono btw keep those threads coming....but this one wasn't on point. I don't think Shimada should be criticized for what he did or didn't in those fights.

Shimada is a kind of guy who holds grudge for someone for many freaking years showing how proud or righteous he is. I don't think he works with shallow favorism.

When Rockson was found dead, everyone sent condolences except him who said something like "(after he stopped sakuraba vs royler) that kid spit on me and threw a thing at me. I requested a fight with him in the ring and I actually started training for it...but I can't kick his ass anymore"

On another occasion he talked about an incident with Maeda. "After an event, I saw Maeda yelling at a RINGS employee in the hallway. Poor little guy was shoved against the wall looking helpless..so I stepped in and told Maeda that press was still around and be considerate. Maeda turned to me and said he was gonna fuckin' kill me. "

 

[manboy<3]

I remember this fight, it seemed like a legit flash KO when I first watched it..

there are various possibilities

1) Shimada fixed it
2) Ken and Shimada fixed it
3) All three involved fixed it
4) Shimada saw the flash knockout and simply called it
5) Ken for some weird reason decided to fix the fight himself without the other two

You have three pro wrestling guys in the ring in a match fixing org like PRIDE...but you also have Ken Shamrock whose chin and behavior has always been strange..something fishy was always going to happen

same with the Ken vs Fujita fight...Ken outboxes Fujita but then has a heart attack..This is not real fight..first of all I don't believe Ken would have outboxed Fujita (Both couldn't really box but Fujita's power/chin were from a different dimension, in a real fight he would have steamrolled ken) and secondly Ken has the "heart of a lion" and would never quit due to a little palpitation..

 

[manboy<3]

Gono btw keep those threads coming....but this one wasn't on point. I don't think Shimada should be criticized for what he did or didn't in those fights.

Shimada is a kind of guy who holds grudge for someone for many freaking years showing how proud or righteous he is. I don't think he works with shallow favorism.

When Rockson was found dead, everyone sent condolences except him who said something like "(after he stopped sakuraba vs royler) that kid spit on me and threw a thing at me. I requested a fight with him in the ring and I actually started training for it...but I can't kick his ass anymore"

On another occasion he talked about an incident with Maeda. "After an event, I saw Maeda yelling at a RINGS employee in the hallway. Poor little guy was shoved against the wall looking helpless..so I stepped in and told Maeda that press was still around and be considerate. Maeda turned to me and said he was gonna fuckin' kill me. "

You should do a thread..."The crimes of Akira Maeda.."

 

[gono btw]

I remember this fight, it seemed like a legit flash KO when I first watched it..

there are various possibilities

1) Shimada fixed it
2) Ken and Shimada fixed it
3) All three involved fixed it
4) Shimada saw the flash knockout and simply called it
5) Ken for some weird reason decided to fix the fight himself without the other two

You have three pro wrestling guys in the ring in a match fixing org like PRIDE...but you also have Ken Shamrock whose chin and behavior has always been strange..something fishy was always going to happen

same with the Ken vs Fujita fight...Ken outboxes Fujita but then has a heart attack..This is not real fight..first of all I don't believe Ken would have outboxed Fujita (Both couldn't really box but Fujita's power/chin were from a different dimension, in a real fight he would have steamrolled ken) and secondly Ken has the "heart of a lion" and would never quit due to a little palpitation..

Gono btw keep those threads coming....but this one wasn't on point. I don't think Shimada should be criticized for what he did or didn't in those fights.

Shimada is a kind of guy who holds grudge for someone for many freaking years showing how proud or righteous he is. I don't think he works with shallow favorism.

When Rockson was found dead, everyone sent condolences except him who said something like "(after he stopped sakuraba vs royler) that kid spit on me and threw a thing at me. I requested a fight with him in the ring and I actually started training for it...but I can't kick his ass anymore"

On another occasion he talked about an incident with Maeda. "After an event, I saw Maeda yelling at a RINGS employee in the hallway. Poor little guy was shoved against the wall looking helpless..so I stepped in and told Maeda that press was still around and be considerate. Maeda turned to me and said he was gonna fuckin' kill me. "

OK, I think we have a misunderstandin´here, mates...

SAKU vs Ken > Referee=Daisuke Noguchi

Randleman vs Ohara > Referee = Shimada

Means> 2 Referees involved and a different treatment of a similar technical sequence.

Im actually fine with either the yellow card or the stoppage, but not with a different treatment.

Spoiler: Pride & fight fixin´

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-25-the-wild-wild-east.3886295/

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-28-deaf-ears.3907767/

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-24-carlson´s-silence.3879035/

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...de-ow-gp-mezger-those-infamous-6-lbs.3899881/

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...s-part-32-where´s-dat-suplex-monster.3954795/

 

[JacJeanFinger]

OK, I think we have a misunderstandin´here, mates...

SAKU vs Ken > Referee=Daisuke Noguchi

Randleman vs Ohara > Referee = Shimada

Means> 2 Referees involved and a different treatment of a similar technical sequence.

Im actually fine with either the yellow card or the stoppage, but not with a different treatment.

Spoiler: Pride & fight fixin´

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-25-the-wild-wild-east.3886295/

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-28-deaf-ears.3907767/

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-24-carlson´s-silence.3879035/

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...de-ow-gp-mezger-those-infamous-6-lbs.3899881/

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-32-where´s-dat-suplex-monster.3954795/

Oh 2 refs but where is the problem? It would have looked better if ken had fell off the ring while getting KO'd in the similar dramatic fashion to his brother vs Kondo at PANCRASE. But ken got knocked out and fell on the rope=TKO. ....whereas Obara fuckin ran to escape outside to avoid getting hit=CAUTION. He was fully conscious and rolling escape was performed in a very agile motion as we can tell. They were 2 completely different cases.

 

[JacJeanFinger]

I remember this fight, it seemed like a legit flash KO when I first watched it..

there are various possibilities

1) Shimada fixed it
2) Ken and Shimada fixed it
3) All three involved fixed it
4) Shimada saw the flash knockout and simply called it
5) Ken for some weird reason decided to fix the fight himself without the other two

You have three pro wrestling guys in the ring in a match fixing org like PRIDE...but you also have Ken Shamrock whose chin and behavior has always been strange..something fishy was always going to happen

same with the Ken vs Fujita fight...Ken outboxes Fujita but then has a heart attack..This is not real fight..first of all I don't believe Ken would have outboxed Fujita (Both couldn't really box but Fujita's power/chin were from a different dimension, in a real fight he would have steamrolled ken) and secondly Ken has the "heart of a lion" and would never quit due to a little palpitation..

Odds had sakuraba winning -200.

Ken had been pretty washed up coming to another PRIDE fight on that night and Sakuraba just came back from intensive training at chute boxe in Brazil.

I thought it was an awful idea for sakuraba to train with the people who offer nothing useful to add to his game. Ken could have capitalized the Japanese man's false sense of confidence and beat him early standing like Marquardt finished Maia with one huge right hand (Maia made the same mistake to train with Wanderlei before this fight). But that didn't happen.

I don't believe there was any instruction telling shamrock what to do in the ring.

 

[gono btw]

Oh 2 refs but where is the problem? It would have looked better if ken had fell off the ring while getting KO'd in the similar dramatic fashion to his brother vs Kondo at PANCRASE. But ken got knocked out and fell on the rope=TKO. ....whereas Obara fuckin ran to escape outside to avoid getting hit=CAUTION. He was fully conscious and rolling escape was performed in a very agile motion as we can tell. They were 2 completely different cases.

hmm..nah, Ken was hardly rocked, rewatch the replay in slow-mo..That was not even a hard punch.

He wanted out.

Meanwhile, 2 fights = 2 Refs = 2 different treaments of similar situation.

 

[Dead Spirit of MMA]

Ken's career looked pretty weird from about Franklin onward, even before then if you include a few works in Pancrase and the weird ending to the Fujita fight.

You had the Franklin fight in which some people think he took a dive, you had the flash KO against Sakuraba, two flash KOs (if I remember. Don't remember him being fully out in either) against Tito, a weak looking KO loss against Buzz Berry, and another fight which some believe to be a work against Kimbo.

Possible works aside, I think Ken's chin is and was shot to pieces. Those Lion's Den guys had a reputation for hard sparring just like the Chute Boxe guys, and Ken is no defensive boxing master. It's my personal opinion that Ken was flash KO'd or stunned enough for a legitimate stoppage. I think there's a little bit of room to argue that maybe the ref should have let one or two more punches go but mostly because Ken got right back up. Based on what the ref saw, I think it was a fair stoppage and I don't know that Shamrock would have recovered.

The video shows the punch which hurt him a little clearer (at about 9:57 if the timestamp doesn't work):


Watching it again, there's definitely a chance that Ken just wanted out. He didn't cover up as he fell, though, so I think he was hurt at least a little.

 

[gono btw]

Ken's career looked pretty weird from about Franklin onward, even before then if you include a few works in Pancrase and the weird ending to the Fujita fight.

You had the Franklin fight in which some people think he took a dive, you had the flash KO against Sakuraba, two flash KOs (if I remember. Don't remember him being fully out in either) against Tito, a weak looking KO loss against Buzz Berry, and another fight which some believe to be a work against Kimbo.

Possible works aside, I think Ken's chin is and was shot to pieces. Those Lion's Den guys had a reputation for hard sparring just like the Chute Boxe guys, and Ken is no defensive boxing master. It's my personal opinion that Ken was flash KO'd or stunned enough for a legitimate stoppage. I think there's a little bit of room to argue that maybe the ref should have let one or two more punches go but mostly because Ken got right back up. Based on what the ref saw, I think it was a fair stoppage and I don't know that Shamrock would have recovered.

The video shows the punch which hurt him a little clearer (at about 9:57 if the timestamp doesn't work):


Watching it again, there's definitely a chance that Ken just wanted out. He didn't cover up as he fell, though, so I think he was hurt at least a little.

hmm, yeah, but what is discussed here is not the legitimacy of the stoppage, but rather the different treament these 2 fights received, about a similar technical sequence.

Im personally fine with either the yellow card or the stoppage.