The Concept of "Working off your back"

[The Patient One]

In much MMA discussion there is the idea of "Working off your back," more recently it is used to analyze match ups like Cain and JDS II, Diaz vs GSP in particular.

So, what I want to discuss in this thread is the whole idea of working off your back in MMA. I'd like people's thoughts on the topic (it is quite a big and important one at that).

Fighting off your back can include, but not limited to; half, open and closed guard sweeps and reversals to arm drags, sweeps, submissions and back takes. As well as other guards such as rubber and deep half (we saw Big Nog go for it in his match with Herman). There is also the option of getting back up to your feet.

So, from this. We can conclude that fighting off your back has 3 main options; sweep, submit the opponent or get back to your feet. I don't notice fighters, at all levels getting that many sweeps in MMA, it isn't a secret that it is difficult to sweep an opponent whilst getting hit in the face by a trained opponent.

The impression that I'm getting is that (right now) there is only a limited amount of fighters in the sport that, at an elite level can effectively fight off their backs to get submissions (and sweeps). My point here is not to bash fighters, but what I've noticed is that the number of submissions that fighters attempt compared to the number of submissions (and sweeps) that they actually get is a small ratio compared to the number of successful attempts that fighters make to get back to their feet.

Obviously there are fighters that can and actively do submit people off their backs, Lauzon, Maia, Anderson and others spring to mind. But from what I've noticed, is there an argument to, in training- to not work that many submissions and sweeps and instead just focus on getting back to their feet instead?

 

[FrankWank]

Working off your back = Torres vs Mighty Mouse

 

[AndyGoaty**]

I love Shogun's back work when he isn't tired.

 

[Conan Lerehcob]

A submission attempt can lead to a sweep or a reversal to get back on your feets.

I say they are all equally important but it also depend on your own skillset and your opponent.

If your ground game is better you would rather work to sweep/submit than scrambling back to your feet.

 

[muscari]

I think TDD is a far more critical and important section of grappling than fighting off your back, simply because it's easier to get the judge's nod when you stuff takedown after takedown, rather than trting to get submissiones or just elbowing the guy on top.

 

[MusaGhadhanfar]

I've been training mma (muaythai BJJ wrestling) for a while and what I realise is that being on your back is an extremely undisireable position and your goal should be to get out from underneath another fighter asap, its much Less risky to get up to ur feet, reverse than to spend time getting hit and attempting submissions

 

[JayElectra]

Yes. For the majority of fighters, getting back to your feet as quickly as possible is the best route.

 

[Brolypr]

well working off your back = bad for many reasons

1) cant strike effectively so less options
2) more sub obtions and control in top game vs bottom game
3) in mma being on top is winning unlike bjj rules where if you are in someones guard its a neutral position
4) judges tend to see being in the bottom as losing
5) easier to get hit by punches and elbows

so just too many cons and too little pros to be messing around in the bottom unless you are a bjj ace like maia and nog

 

[KOREANZOMBIE420]

 

[MiniCraque]

The judging criteria is retarded and fighters made an effort to adapt. This isn't new.

 

[JoeLogan]

Working off your back = Torres vs Mighty Mouse

I thought Torres got robbed in that fight, by the way, and of all the fights where the word "robbed" and "robbery" are thrown around, there are only a few that I actually think were robberies.

 

[The Patient One]

The judging criteria is retarded and fighters made an effort to adapt. This isn't new.

Did you read the OP? I never talked about judging criteria.

 

[mmathurbator]

The problem with only being able to get back to your feet, is that there is always a better wrestler than you, who will take you back down. If you don't have anderson silva timing, distance, and accuracy then you probably won't be able to avoid the clinch from someone like say John Fitch. So you will get taken down again and again and get the blanket. I think people should work both getting up to their feet, and more work on sweeps. Less work on submissions off your back. If you can sweep a wrestler, you have a chance to be on top of someone who you otherwise would never get that chance with. Its easier to sweep a good wrestler than to take them down (if you are trained well in sweeps). People just aren't using the best sweeps for mma. They try sweeps that work well in sport jiu jitsu, but most of them don't translate over.

 

[MMA]

The judging criteria is retarded and fighters made an effort to adapt. This isn't new.

Says the guy with the BJJ avatar.

BJJ guy blames judging criteria; fails to even consider that being on your back might actually be objectively bad. This isn't new.

 

[JoeLogan]

Did you read the OP? I never talked about judging criteria.

You can also just decide to do damage off of your back. Bas Rutten won the title from Kevin Randleman doing just that (though, to be fair, a lot of people thought Randleman deserved the decision, but I thought Bas did enough), and Diego Sanchez arguably won the second round in the Clay Guida fight doing that.

And a lot of fighters do work on just getting back to their feet when they're put on their back. KJ Noons has worked heavily on that in the last few years of his fights, and, though he still got wrestled to a decision in his last fight (which saddened me), he showed much improved TDD and an ability to get back to his feet. The problem with training solely on that is that it inevitably reaches a point of diminishing returns.

I mean, a lot of fighters have shown that you're able to reach a world-class level by being great at two aspects of MMA but only competent at the third-- being great at all three is preferable, but if you're really good at only two then you can still reach great heights (Miguel Torres in his prime is a great example of this; he, essentially, exchanged wrestling for being much better at BJJ and striking, and it made him a huge threat on the ground so nobody would want to wrestle with him, and just as big a threat striking, so you'd be worried about getting KO'd or dropped and quickly choked out when you stood with him)-- but you have to be great at all aspects of those two things, if you get what I'm saying. For example, if you're only good at striking and wrestling and your ground game, while improving, isn't at that same level, then you have to be good at every part of striking and wrestling; you can't just stick with takedowns and boxing, you've gotta work on passing guard and get good at kicks and shit. And if you're a striker with a good bottom game, then you have to be good at every part of being on your back. You have to not only work heavily on getting back to your feet, but on your sweeps and submissions as well, otherwise you reach that point of diminishing returns. Getting back to your feet might be a part of wrestling, though, so... hmmm...

I don't train, so I don't know what I'm talking about, but I hope you get the idea of what I'm trying to say.

 

[Break Brick]

Some people are of the opinion that forced stand-ups cause the guy on his back to tie up and look to simply nullity the action to force the stand-up.

Perhaps if referee stand-ups were taken away we might see more people attempting more sweeps and sub attempts etc off their back instead of stalling for the stand-ups.

I kind of agree with this logic. However you do have fighter like Diaz who still go for subs/sweeps/scrambles even with the current system so...

 

[TEXASMOJO]

Mousasi is very dangerous off his back.

 

[bryank]

Good thread. I agree that we have seen very little success with sweeps... that's why Rogan GUSHES whenever anyone is able to effectively sweep (saw it in the TUF finals, don't remember who though).

And the problem with having an active guard with subs is that judges don't have a fuckin clue what's going on... so you can be constantly threatening for 5 mins, and lose a 10-9 round.

So I think that leaves more fighters in the camp where they need to go for broke to get up right away. Especially as BJJ defense and particularly back defense has improved, I think the risk-reward to cause a scramble and get back to your feet is the best option.

 

[MiroHa]

I love Shogun's back work when he isn't tired.

Yeah, Shogun's half guard game and leglocks are beautiful.

 

[Wanna Bet]

I wish more guys had Shogun's skillset on the bottom.

Eaty. Sleepy. Sweepy.