Economy The 400 wealthiest Americans last year paid a lower total tax rate than any other income group

No, marginal tax rates are not flat by definition. Said another way, the marginal tax rate is always constant with a flat tax. A flat tax is proportional not progressive unless you fuck with deductions to make it more like a marginal rate system.

Also I never commented on the US being proportional, I said it was not progressive enough, case in point if the top are paying less, its actually regressive.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_tax

Yes like a said a true flat tax is proportional, I never said it was progressive. I'm for proportional taxation.

The reason I don't like progressive taxation is because it incentives tax avoidance and tax law often becomes a 100 000 page quagmire that the extremely wealthy learn or hire someone to manipulate. I don't understand how a solution to a progressive tax system that doesn't work is more progressivism.

Simplify and reduce the incentive for tax avoidance by using a proportional system.
 
Yes like a said a true flat tax is proportional, I never said it was progressive. I'm for proportional taxation.

The reason I don't like progressive taxation is because it incentives tax avoidance and tax law often becomes a 100 000 page quagmire that the extremely wealthy learn or hire someone to manipulate. I don't understand how a solution to a progressive tax system that doesn't work is more progressivism.

Simplify and reduce the incentive for tax avoidance by using a proportional system.

You said “Marginal tax rates are considered flat taxes“. That’s wrong / or maybe just badly worded.

The rich have paid more for much of recent US history. Now it’s the opposite. Your solution does not solve the problems / achieve the objectives that a progressive tax system is supposed to address, at best it reverses only the recent regressiveness of the current system.

Again look at history, when the US govt is serious about tax collection, truly progressive tax systems have worked. And much of the complexity is a legislative attempt by the rich to dodge progressivity in the tax code, so the solution is to get rid of those legislative games, not throw the baby out with the bath water and abandon progressive taxes.

Attack removing the estate tax, attack the use of / lower corporate taxes / taxes on investment income, etc. There are many things that can easily be done to make the system work as it has in the past before caving in and saying “look the rich are paying less taxes let’s institutionalize it with a feed the rich tax plan”.
 
we got a small group of rich people, lets call it the modern US techno-corporate oligarchy that the wealth in the country flows up to and stops at, and even if the method of extraction and demographic of the slave class is different, it's really just the same song and dance society has been playing for a long time, the question is if it's an emergent effect from human civilization and if attempts to "balance the scales" will have a destabilizing effect or if it's really actually possible to live in a utopia where everyone is chilling and things are generally cool, it may just be that things aren't messed up but mechanically necessary for society to function, but im not an expert either I'm just a guy who's high on an internet forum tbh but the wealth inequality sure seems fucked up


Could be, but we know same race slave/serfdom was less brutal than mixed race, and I'd bet that has been transferred to the North American landscape.
 
Your article and the op are different numbers to begin with. 36 and 30 are different. The op is cheating by including capital gains. The effective rate pains in both eras are similar. 36-42. Changing the laws changes the effective rate. Ya. Everyone knows that. Add loopholes and it goes down. You’re not saying anything. But granting you your statement and ignoring all of that, why should they pay 20% today

Why do you keep saying 36 when that's from 2014 and we have had a tax cut in 2018? IS there some reason you refuse to apply the most recent information?

And the OP isn't cheating by including cap gains.

As for why they should pay 20% today - no one said that. People said that if the tax rate returned to the 1950s level, the effective rate would be higher. Why do you insist that people argue a point that they didn't make.

The point that people made is that they should pay more. No one specified exactly how much more. 20% more is just a guess as to how much higher the effective rate would be if the rates returned to 1950s level rates.
 
Could be, but we know same race slave/serfdom was less brutal than mixed race, and I'd bet that has been transferred to the North American landscape.
How do we know that? You study slavery a bunch? How brutal was Sumerian and Roman slavery? Or Egyptian? How about the modern slavery now like in third world countries, is that more or less brutal than slavery in America in the past? How are we measuring brutality? It all seems quite brutal to me.
 
How do we know that? You study slavery a bunch? How brutal was Sumerian and Roman slavery? Or Egyptian? How about the modern slavery now like in third world countries, is that more or less brutal than slavery in America in the past? How are we measuring brutality? It all seems quite brutal to me.

Compare black slavery in the Carribean and the US to Russians surfs or black slavery in Africa. Totally different systems. B
 
While I agree that our tax system needs to be overhauled, I don’t necessarily want it to come at the expense of the rich. The rich should pay what they’re paying now, and the middle class should pay even less.
Someone earning hundreds of millions a year can pay more than 25% of their fucking income. The corporate greed is disgusting. Look at companies like Costco. They hire full time, they pay a decent wage, they have benefits and pensions. They still make a boatload of money. Companies like Walmart, with multiple owners worth more than 40 billion, somehow can't provide full time positions, provide no benefits, and have a large chunk of their employees on government assistance.

So basically Walmart is using the tax payers to supplement their employees wages so they can an extra billion.

The American middle class is fucked. Now we have automation coming, which isn't even nessasary, it's just helps a billion dollar company make even more money. Mind you, a company that was built on human labor and wouldn't be afloat if it wasn't for its workers.
 
You said “Marginal tax rates are considered flat taxes“. That’s wrong / or maybe just badly worded.

The rich have paid more for much of recent US history. Now it’s the opposite. Your solution does not solve the problems / achieve the objectives that a progressive tax system is supposed to address, at best it reverses only the recent regressiveness of the current system.

Again look at history, when the US govt is serious about tax collection, truly progressive tax systems have worked. And much of the complexity is a legislative attempt by the rich to dodge progressivity in the tax code, so the solution is to get rid of those legislative games, not throw the baby out with the bath water and abandon progressive taxes.

Attack removing the estate tax, attack the use of / lower corporate taxes / taxes on investment income, etc. There are many things that can easily be done to make the system work as it has in the past before caving in and saying “look the rich are paying less taxes let’s institutionalize it with a feed the rich tax plan”.
I am the last guy to argue against a progressive tax system but at the same time isn't there truth to the idea that the wealthy will move their money overseas? That has become easier than its ever been in the 21st century with fewer barriers than ever for the free flow of capital.

That's not to say that we shouldn't have a progressive tax system but we might have to design it differently from what we had in the past in light of current circumstances.
 
I am the last guy to argue against a progressive tax system but at the same time isn't there truth to the idea that the wealthy will move their money overseas? That has become easier than its ever been in the 21st century with fewer barriers than ever for the free flow of capital.

That's not to say that we shouldn't have a progressive tax system but we might have to design it differently from what we had in the past in light of current circumstances.

I think it’s a factor but there are some important points to consider

- Income taxes on individuals are not easily moved overseas. It is usually taxed based on residency or in the US case, citizenship

- Wealth moved overseas must be illegally hidden, or again the dividends / investment income attach to residency / citizenship.

- The real issues is with taxation of corporations rather than individuals. Corporations can move stuff overseas easily and hold onto cash avoiding personal income taxes. The USA has more than the required clout to change the rules of the game here (ie global income tax rate of 25% of you don’t get to play in the US market)
 
I think it’s a factor but there are some important points to consider

- Income taxes on individuals are not easily moved overseas. It is usually taxed based on residency or in the US case, citizenship

- Wealth moved overseas must be illegally hidden, or again the dividends / investment income attach to residency / citizenship.

- The real issues is with taxation of corporations rather than individuals. Corporations can move stuff overseas easily and hold onto cash avoiding personal income taxes. The USA has more than the required clout to change the rules of the game here (ie global income tax rate of 25% of you don’t get to play in the US market)
Good enough for me.
 
Compare black slavery in the Carribean and the US to Russians surfs or black slavery in Africa. Totally different systems. B
ok serfdom is different than chattel slavery, so yes different systems but not a valid comparison, not sure why you would need to use such a weak example after I already provided you with actual good ones from a historical perspective

and in the US whats your explanation for guys like Anthony Johnson and William Ellison who earned their freedom and then became black slave owners of other blacks, and in William Ellison's case had a reputation as a harsh master? Is this an exception to the rule or was there likely a variety of conditions across states and over time experienced among individuals, very similar to other cultures and societies throughout history?
 
Someone earning hundreds of millions a year can pay more than 25% of their fucking income. The corporate greed is disgusting. Look at companies like Costco. They hire full time, they pay a decent wage, they have benefits and pensions. They still make a boatload of money. Companies like Walmart, with multiple owners worth more than 40 billion, somehow can't provide full time positions, provide no benefits, and have a large chunk of their employees on government assistance.

So basically Walmart is using the tax payers to supplement their employees wages so they can an extra billion.

The American middle class is fucked. Now we have automation coming, which isn't even nessasary, it's just helps a billion dollar company make even more money. Mind you, a company that was built on human labor and wouldn't be afloat if it wasn't for its workers.

I am not a fan of WalMart's business practices, so described in your post. I have a lot of opinions about corporations, but not all of them are tax-related. I will save those opinions for a different thread. That said, some of my ideas about taxes only make sense if ours laws are overhauled, . So keep that in mind in considering the following:
  1. Corporations (the entities) should always pay more taxes than natural persons, especially once they reach a certain size, and if they are multinational. They already have limited civil liability. They don't deserve tax breaks. The only reason a corporation should be able to reduce its tax liability is if it provides benefits, since those benefits will ultimately reduce stress on government-sponsored social programs.
  2. Individual persons should never pay more than 25% of their income to taxes. IMO, taxes should be lower across the board, maybe like 10%. While I don't think we should tax "the rich" at a higher rate, they should not have any extra "breaks" either. For example, someone like Mitt Romney should not pay less just because the income came from dividends and capital gains.
  3. The number of write-offs, exemptions, etc. should be very, very small, and they should only be available to people who are not "rich."
The major distinction for me is natural vs. corporate interests.

I am the last guy to argue against a progressive tax system but at the same time isn't there truth to the idea that the wealthy will move their money overseas? That has become easier than its ever been in the 21st century with fewer barriers than ever for the free flow of capital.

That's not to say that we shouldn't have a progressive tax system but we might have to design it differently from what we had in the past in light of current circumstances.

Yes that's true to certain extent. There are other reasons super rich people keep their money here though, namely the stability and predictability of our institutions. I suspect that if we jacked up the tax rates, most rich people aren't going to relocate to a place like China where the government can basically dispossess them at will. But aside from that, we want a system that encourages successful, productive behavior. And to that end, allowing people to keep what they earn is a pretty good incentive. It's intuitive, it's fair, and it's administrable. The real problems arise when we start screwing around with tax breaks, exceptions, etc., because we aren't necessarily rewarding productive behavior. We're just rewarding purely profit-seeking behavior.

But assuming we must have some sort of progressive tax system (realistically, it's probably inescapable), the top rate should still be low enough that it doesn't deter entrepreneurship.
 
Mindless sheep see this and think "THE RICH SHOULD BE PAYING MORE"

I see this and think "WE SHOULD ALL BE PAYING LESS AND THE GOVERNMENT SHOULD STOP WASTING OUR FUCKING MONEY"

It seems like people on all the political sides acknowledge government is corrupt and defective to a large extent... but for some reason we think pumping more money into a broken machine is going to fix things.

It's like the moron who puts a dollar into the vending machine and no candy bar comes out, so he thinks "hmmm I guess I'll have to just keep putting more dollar bills in there".

Get a clue!
 
So you are under the assumption that you can just take 70 cents on every dollar of a wealthy person and not have them seek out other options to avoid that...because...Canada? If you tried to pass a law to take 70 cents of every dollar I have...you better damn well bank on my seeking out means to avoid that. Because I'm not an idiot.

This entire thread is about marginal tax rate as is the discussion we have been having...ffs.

Well, obviously you don't understand what a marginal tax rate is.

A 70% rate, to which you were replying, does not mean that you pay 70 cents on every dollar earned.

Trotsky was correct, you and your conservative brethren repeatedly demonstrate the inability to even understand the most basic concepts, and instead use a complete misunderstanding of tax code to foster idiotic arguments that ultimately boil down to protecting the wealthy at everyone else's expense, including yours. The super rich tell you that shit doesn't stink, and you spend your life trying to convince everyone else that it's true. FFS indeed.
 
ok serfdom is different than chattel slavery, so yes different systems but not a valid comparison, not sure why you would need to use such a weak example after I already provided you with actual good ones from a historical perspective

and in the US whats your explanation for guys like Anthony Johnson and William Ellison who earned their freedom and then became black slave owners of other blacks, and in William Ellison's case had a reputation as a harsh master? Is this an exception to the rule or was there likely a variety of conditions across states and over time experienced among individuals, very similar to other cultures and societies throughout history?


Perhaps surfom is the best example, b/c it was race, being the same race, that prevented it from becoming slavery.

It seems to me you are trying very hard to reduce the importance of race.

The 2 you mentioned are aborations. Just look at the number. How many slaves earned tehir freedome and became successful, 1 in a 100,000 …. or 1 in a million?
 
I am the last guy to argue against a progressive tax system but at the same time isn't there truth to the idea that the wealthy will move their money overseas? That has become easier than its ever been in the 21st century with fewer barriers than ever for the free flow of capital.

That's not to say that we shouldn't have a progressive tax system but we might have to design it differently from what we had in the past in light of current circumstances.
There's some truth to it but not as much as people imply.

Income is taxed where it's earned. For the wealthy to move their income in relation to taxes, they'd have to move the source of that income. Obviously, investment income from the stock market or real estate can't move. Some service income can but most of it can't. Goods are mostly stuck if they're sold in the U.S.

Tech and entertainment has the the most flexibility since you can park the IP elsewhere. Hence things like the Irish Double Dutch Sandwich.

Now moving wealth is a different matter altogether. But with a proper income tax, it should worry you less since you've taxed the income sufficiently.
 
Perhaps surfom is the best example, b/c it was race, being the same race, that prevented it from becoming slavery.

It seems to me you are trying very hard to reduce the importance of race.

The 2 you mentioned are aborations. Just look at the number. How many slaves earned tehir freedome and became successful, 1 in a 100,000 …. or 1 in a million?
if you really like the race narrative and want to use to explain the world then go ahead man, objectively speaking it doesn't actually make much sense but it gets shoved down everyone's throats so I get it
 
Interesting Op-Ed on the erosion of America's Progressive Tax system



https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/10/06/opinion/income-tax-rate-wealthy.html

Almost a decade ago, Warren Buffett made a claim that would become famous. He said that he paid a lower tax rate than his secretary, thanks to the many loopholes and deductions that benefit the wealthy.

His claim sparked a debate about the fairness of the tax system. In the end, the expert consensus was that, whatever Buffett’s specific situation, most wealthy Americans did not actually pay a lower tax rate than the middle class. “Is it the norm?” the fact-checking outfit Politifact asked. “No.”

Time for an update: It’s the norm now.

For the first time on record, the 400 wealthiest Americans last year paid a lower total tax rate — spanning federal, state and local taxes — than any other income group, according to newly released data.


That’s a sharp change from the 1950s and 1960s, when the wealthy paid vastly higher tax rates than the middle class or poor.

Since then, taxes that hit the wealthiest the hardest — like the estate tax and corporate tax — have plummeted, while tax avoidance has become more common.

President Trump’s 2017 tax cut, which was largely a handout to the rich, plays a role, too. It helped push the tax rate on the 400 wealthiest households below the rates for almost everyone else.

The overall tax rate on the richest 400 households last year was only 23 percent, meaning that their combined tax payments equaled less than one quarter of their total income. This overall rate was 70 percent in 1950 and 47 percent in 1980.

For middle-class and poor families, the picture is different. Federal income taxes have also declined modestly for these families, but they haven’t benefited much if at all from the decline in the corporate tax or estate tax. And they now pay more in payroll taxes (which finance Medicare and Social Security) than in the past. Over all, their taxes have remained fairly flat.

The combined result is that over the last 75 years the United States tax system has become radically less progressive.

The data here come from the most important book on government policy that I’ve read in a long time — called “The Triumph of Injustice,” to be released next week. The authors are Emmanuel Saez and Gabriel Zucman, both professors at the University of California, Berkeley, who have done pathbreaking work on taxes. Saez has won the award that goes to the top academic economist under age 40, and Zucman was recently profiled on the cover of Bloomberg BusinessWeek magazine as “the wealth detective.”

They have constructed a historical database that tracks the tax payments of households at different points along the income spectrum going back to 1913, when the federal income tax began. The story they tell is maddening — and yet ultimately energizing.

“Many people have the view that nothing can be done,” Zucman told me. “Our case is, ‘No, that’s wrong. Look at history.’” As they write in the book: “Societies can choose whatever level of tax progressivity they want.” When the United States has raised tax rates on the wealthy and made rigorous efforts to collect those taxes, it has succeeded in doing so.

And it can succeed again.

Saez and Zucman portray the history of American taxes as a struggle between people who want to tax the rich and those who want to protect the fortunes of the rich. The story starts in the 17th century, when Northern colonies created more progressive tax systems than Europe had. Massachusetts even enacted a wealth tax, which covered financial holdings, land, ships, jewelry, livestock and more.

The Southern colonies, by contrast, were hostile to taxation. Plantation owners worried that taxes could undermine slavery by eroding the wealth of shareholders, as the historian Robin Einhorn has explained, and made sure to keep tax rates low and tax collection ineffective. (The Confederacy’s hostility to taxes ultimately hampered its ability to raise money and fight the Civil War.)

By the middle of the 20th century, the high-tax advocates had prevailed. The United States had arguably the world’s most progressive tax code, with a top income-tax rate of 91 percent and a corporate tax rate above 50 percent.

But the second half of the 20th century was mostly a victory for the low-tax side. Companies found ways to take more deductions and dodge taxes. Politicians cut every tax that fell heavily on the wealthy: high-end income taxes, investment taxes, the estate tax and the corporate tax. The justification for doing so was usually that the economy as a whole would benefit.

The justification turned out to be wrong. The wealthy, and only the wealthy, have done fantastically well over the last several decades. G.D.P. growth has been disappointing, and middle-class income growth even worse.

The American economy just doesn’t function very well when tax rates on the rich are low and inequality is sky high. It was true in the lead-up to the Great Depression, and it’s been true recently. Which means that raising high-end taxes isn’t about punishing the rich (who, by the way, will still be rich). It’s about creating an economy that works better for the vast majority of Americans.

In their book, Saez and Zucman sketch out a modern progressive tax code. The overall tax rate on the richest 1 percent would roughly double, to about 60 percent. The tax increases would bring in about $750 billion a year, or 4 percent of G.D.P., enough to pay for universal pre-K, an infrastructure program, medical research, clean energy and more. Those are the kinds of policies that do lift economic growth.

One crucial part of the agenda is a minimum global corporate tax of at least 25 percent. A company would have to pay the tax on its profits in the United States even if it set up headquarters in Ireland or Bermuda. Saez and Zucman also favor a wealth tax; Elizabeth Warren’s version is based on their work. And they call for the creation of a Public Protection Bureau, to help the I.R.S. crack down on tax dodging.

I already know what some critics will say about these arguments — that the rich will always figure out a way to avoid taxes. That’s simply not the case. True, they will always manage to avoid some taxes. But history shows that serious attempts to collect more taxes usually succeed.

Ask yourself this: If efforts to tax the super-rich were really doomed to fail, why would so many of the super-rich be fighting so hard to defeat those efforts?

not true almost half of all americans pay 0 taxes
 
if you really like the race narrative and want to use to explain the world then go ahead man, objectively speaking it doesn't actually make much sense but it gets shoved down everyone's throats so I get it

I honestly don't understand why you and so many others do not accept race as a factor in history.
 
I honestly don't understand why you and so many others do not accept race as a factor in history.
its a factor for sure, but there's a difference between a narrative pushed in media and the reality of life, I can keep finding examples of that like with the two black guys experience in slavery that doesn't really fit with what you're pushing, and limiting the problems we have in society to issues of race just enables rich people to trick poor people into falling for a bunch of dumb stuff like they have since there have been rich and poor people
 
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