Economy The 400 wealthiest Americans last year paid a lower total tax rate than any other income group

Discussion in 'The War Room' started by PolishHeadlock2, Oct 7, 2019.

  1. solmu

    solmu Blue Belt

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    Yes like a said a true flat tax is proportional, I never said it was progressive. I'm for proportional taxation.

    The reason I don't like progressive taxation is because it incentives tax avoidance and tax law often becomes a 100 000 page quagmire that the extremely wealthy learn or hire someone to manipulate. I don't understand how a solution to a progressive tax system that doesn't work is more progressivism.

    Simplify and reduce the incentive for tax avoidance by using a proportional system.
     
  2. Gandhi

    Gandhi War Room Deep State Platinum Member

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    You said “Marginal tax rates are considered flat taxes“. That’s wrong / or maybe just badly worded.

    The rich have paid more for much of recent US history. Now it’s the opposite. Your solution does not solve the problems / achieve the objectives that a progressive tax system is supposed to address, at best it reverses only the recent regressiveness of the current system.

    Again look at history, when the US govt is serious about tax collection, truly progressive tax systems have worked. And much of the complexity is a legislative attempt by the rich to dodge progressivity in the tax code, so the solution is to get rid of those legislative games, not throw the baby out with the bath water and abandon progressive taxes.

    Attack removing the estate tax, attack the use of / lower corporate taxes / taxes on investment income, etc. There are many things that can easily be done to make the system work as it has in the past before caving in and saying “look the rich are paying less taxes let’s institutionalize it with a feed the rich tax plan”.
     
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  3. SammyPops

    SammyPops Gold Belt

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    Could be, but we know same race slave/serfdom was less brutal than mixed race, and I'd bet that has been transferred to the North American landscape.
     
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  4. panamaican

    panamaican Senior Moderator Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Why do you keep saying 36 when that's from 2014 and we have had a tax cut in 2018? IS there some reason you refuse to apply the most recent information?

    And the OP isn't cheating by including cap gains.

    As for why they should pay 20% today - no one said that. People said that if the tax rate returned to the 1950s level, the effective rate would be higher. Why do you insist that people argue a point that they didn't make.

    The point that people made is that they should pay more. No one specified exactly how much more. 20% more is just a guess as to how much higher the effective rate would be if the rates returned to 1950s level rates.
     
  5. THEfightsAREfixed

    THEfightsAREfixed Master Servant

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    How do we know that? You study slavery a bunch? How brutal was Sumerian and Roman slavery? Or Egyptian? How about the modern slavery now like in third world countries, is that more or less brutal than slavery in America in the past? How are we measuring brutality? It all seems quite brutal to me.
     
  6. SammyPops

    SammyPops Gold Belt

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    Compare black slavery in the Carribean and the US to Russians surfs or black slavery in Africa. Totally different systems. B
     
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  7. Airdack

    Airdack fighting out of Sylvan Learning Center

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    Someone earning hundreds of millions a year can pay more than 25% of their fucking income. The corporate greed is disgusting. Look at companies like Costco. They hire full time, they pay a decent wage, they have benefits and pensions. They still make a boatload of money. Companies like Walmart, with multiple owners worth more than 40 billion, somehow can't provide full time positions, provide no benefits, and have a large chunk of their employees on government assistance.

    So basically Walmart is using the tax payers to supplement their employees wages so they can an extra billion.

    The American middle class is fucked. Now we have automation coming, which isn't even nessasary, it's just helps a billion dollar company make even more money. Mind you, a company that was built on human labor and wouldn't be afloat if it wasn't for its workers.
     
  8. Kafir-kun

    Kafir-kun Al Far'oun

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    I am the last guy to argue against a progressive tax system but at the same time isn't there truth to the idea that the wealthy will move their money overseas? That has become easier than its ever been in the 21st century with fewer barriers than ever for the free flow of capital.

    That's not to say that we shouldn't have a progressive tax system but we might have to design it differently from what we had in the past in light of current circumstances.
     
  9. Gandhi

    Gandhi War Room Deep State Platinum Member

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    I think it’s a factor but there are some important points to consider

    - Income taxes on individuals are not easily moved overseas. It is usually taxed based on residency or in the US case, citizenship

    - Wealth moved overseas must be illegally hidden, or again the dividends / investment income attach to residency / citizenship.

    - The real issues is with taxation of corporations rather than individuals. Corporations can move stuff overseas easily and hold onto cash avoiding personal income taxes. The USA has more than the required clout to change the rules of the game here (ie global income tax rate of 25% of you don’t get to play in the US market)
     
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  10. Kafir-kun

    Kafir-kun Al Far'oun

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    Good enough for me.
     
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  11. THEfightsAREfixed

    THEfightsAREfixed Master Servant

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    ok serfdom is different than chattel slavery, so yes different systems but not a valid comparison, not sure why you would need to use such a weak example after I already provided you with actual good ones from a historical perspective

    and in the US whats your explanation for guys like Anthony Johnson and William Ellison who earned their freedom and then became black slave owners of other blacks, and in William Ellison's case had a reputation as a harsh master? Is this an exception to the rule or was there likely a variety of conditions across states and over time experienced among individuals, very similar to other cultures and societies throughout history?
     
  12. JamesRussler

    JamesRussler You can call me Jimmy Double Yellow Card

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    I am not a fan of WalMart's business practices, so described in your post. I have a lot of opinions about corporations, but not all of them are tax-related. I will save those opinions for a different thread. That said, some of my ideas about taxes only make sense if ours laws are overhauled, . So keep that in mind in considering the following:
    1. Corporations (the entities) should always pay more taxes than natural persons, especially once they reach a certain size, and if they are multinational. They already have limited civil liability. They don't deserve tax breaks. The only reason a corporation should be able to reduce its tax liability is if it provides benefits, since those benefits will ultimately reduce stress on government-sponsored social programs.
    2. Individual persons should never pay more than 25% of their income to taxes. IMO, taxes should be lower across the board, maybe like 10%. While I don't think we should tax "the rich" at a higher rate, they should not have any extra "breaks" either. For example, someone like Mitt Romney should not pay less just because the income came from dividends and capital gains.
    3. The number of write-offs, exemptions, etc. should be very, very small, and they should only be available to people who are not "rich."
    The major distinction for me is natural vs. corporate interests.

    Yes that's true to certain extent. There are other reasons super rich people keep their money here though, namely the stability and predictability of our institutions. I suspect that if we jacked up the tax rates, most rich people aren't going to relocate to a place like China where the government can basically dispossess them at will. But aside from that, we want a system that encourages successful, productive behavior. And to that end, allowing people to keep what they earn is a pretty good incentive. It's intuitive, it's fair, and it's administrable. The real problems arise when we start screwing around with tax breaks, exceptions, etc., because we aren't necessarily rewarding productive behavior. We're just rewarding purely profit-seeking behavior.

    But assuming we must have some sort of progressive tax system (realistically, it's probably inescapable), the top rate should still be low enough that it doesn't deter entrepreneurship.
     
  13. IGotAHugePeckah

    IGotAHugePeckah With my good buddy Tony Romo

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    Mindless sheep see this and think "THE RICH SHOULD BE PAYING MORE"

    I see this and think "WE SHOULD ALL BE PAYING LESS AND THE GOVERNMENT SHOULD STOP WASTING OUR FUCKING MONEY"

    It seems like people on all the political sides acknowledge government is corrupt and defective to a large extent... but for some reason we think pumping more money into a broken machine is going to fix things.

    It's like the moron who puts a dollar into the vending machine and no candy bar comes out, so he thinks "hmmm I guess I'll have to just keep putting more dollar bills in there".

    Get a clue!
     
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  14. helltoupee

    helltoupee Black Belt

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    Well, obviously you don't understand what a marginal tax rate is.

    A 70% rate, to which you were replying, does not mean that you pay 70 cents on every dollar earned.

    Trotsky was correct, you and your conservative brethren repeatedly demonstrate the inability to even understand the most basic concepts, and instead use a complete misunderstanding of tax code to foster idiotic arguments that ultimately boil down to protecting the wealthy at everyone else's expense, including yours. The super rich tell you that shit doesn't stink, and you spend your life trying to convince everyone else that it's true. FFS indeed.
     
  15. SammyPops

    SammyPops Gold Belt

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    Perhaps surfom is the best example, b/c it was race, being the same race, that prevented it from becoming slavery.

    It seems to me you are trying very hard to reduce the importance of race.

    The 2 you mentioned are aborations. Just look at the number. How many slaves earned tehir freedome and became successful, 1 in a 100,000 …. or 1 in a million?
     
  16. panamaican

    panamaican Senior Moderator Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    There's some truth to it but not as much as people imply.

    Income is taxed where it's earned. For the wealthy to move their income in relation to taxes, they'd have to move the source of that income. Obviously, investment income from the stock market or real estate can't move. Some service income can but most of it can't. Goods are mostly stuck if they're sold in the U.S.

    Tech and entertainment has the the most flexibility since you can park the IP elsewhere. Hence things like the Irish Double Dutch Sandwich.

    Now moving wealth is a different matter altogether. But with a proper income tax, it should worry you less since you've taxed the income sufficiently.
     
  17. THEfightsAREfixed

    THEfightsAREfixed Master Servant

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    if you really like the race narrative and want to use to explain the world then go ahead man, objectively speaking it doesn't actually make much sense but it gets shoved down everyone's throats so I get it
     
  18. Danger Dave

    Danger Dave Borderlands Patrol

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    not true almost half of all americans pay 0 taxes
     
  19. SammyPops

    SammyPops Gold Belt

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    I honestly don't understand why you and so many others do not accept race as a factor in history.
     
  20. THEfightsAREfixed

    THEfightsAREfixed Master Servant

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    its a factor for sure, but there's a difference between a narrative pushed in media and the reality of life, I can keep finding examples of that like with the two black guys experience in slavery that doesn't really fit with what you're pushing, and limiting the problems we have in society to issues of race just enables rich people to trick poor people into falling for a bunch of dumb stuff like they have since there have been rich and poor people
     

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