The 10 pound question - a different view

Discussion in 'UFC Discussion' started by Fox by the Sea, Aug 22, 2015.

  1. Fox by the Sea

    Fox by the Sea Lighthouse keeper Platinum Member

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    No matter how many times i hear it, the 10 lbs. difference being a big issue sounds like bs to me. i know the UFC does not have a 145 or 140 division, therefore a fight does not mean much from an administrative point of view, but this is not the argument i hear mostly, it's the "make the weight, cyborg" one. maybe i am a romantic but i though the glory was gained by people moving UP in weight, not the other way around. DO NOT take this as a Ronda hate thread. She is an absolute legend and will probably be an even brighter star in the future years. but this weight issue bothers me.

    so here is an example of weight difference - Mackenzie Dern defeats Gabi Garcia in the ADCC semis and ends up winning the category and the absolute. it's garcia's first loss in many years and the weight difference was 70 pounds. it was a good offensive strategy employed by Mackenzie, and even though she lost in the past to Gabi, this time she did it.

    to see what i mean, three examples of weight difference between the two:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  2. I WILL CUT YOU

    I WILL CUT YOU Calamity from the Heavens Platinum Member

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    Punching, bro. The game changes when you add striking.
     
  3. Fox by the Sea

    Fox by the Sea Lighthouse keeper Platinum Member

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    true, but this is a game of many dimensions, one of the most dominant in ronda's case being the Judo throws and submissions. it's only lately that she has been starting to knock people out.

    again, i may hear your response from many others, but this is mma. it's supposed to be a more mixing environment, skill-wise. unless ronda plans to make it a boxing match.
     
  4. yekmurat

    yekmurat Silver Belt

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    I remember when I 1st saw Gabi in TUF Brazil with Wand ohh that was a true love for me lol
     
  5. I WILL CUT YOU

    I WILL CUT YOU Calamity from the Heavens Platinum Member

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    The problem is you're comparing grappling to mma. In mma at lower weight levels, 25lbs is a huge difference in punching power.

    Conor vs. Lawler. Not a fair fight at all.
     
  6. Fox by the Sea

    Fox by the Sea Lighthouse keeper Platinum Member

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    right, but we are not talking 25 lbs. we are talking about a fight that could happen at 145. that means both fighters will weigh in at that weight then have a day to hydrate. how could that result in a 25 lbs difference between the two? is cyborg going to hydrate 35 lbs in one day? (assuming ronda hydrates to 155 and then cyborg hydrates to 180, to create the 25 lbs difference you mention).
     
  7. LouisBolanos

    LouisBolanos Popcorn tastes good

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    How many millions does Mackenzie Dern stand to lose if she lost to Gabi Garcia? How many times have the two grappled and how many times has Dern lost? How have those losses dropped her stock in BJJ in any significant way?

    Your analogy is utter bullshit. Gi-jujutsu is nothing like MMA, that's why it's not sanctioned by the commissions, and that's why you're allowed to fight multiple times a day.

    Not to mention you're missing the most important factor: compared to what Rousey is getting paid, the money in Gi-jujutsu is practically non-existent (that is unless if Dern is having an affair with one of these Jujutsu-obsessed Sheikhs who's giving her millions). Dern compared to Rousey, is a complete no name. She gets submitted by ManBearPig, no big deal, nothing lost, money or fame. Rousey's fame, sponsorships and movie roles all rest on her aura of invincibility. Have you seen her act? Who the hell in his right mind would hire Rousey as an actress if it weren't for what she's doing in fighting? We're talking tens of millions of dollars on the line, and that's exactly why it would be retarded for Rousey to NOT use her leverage to force the fight where Cyborg is at a maximum disadvantage.

    Let me ask you a simple question: would you take the same risk on a $5 bet as you would on a $5000 bet? Just because someone is going to throw down a $5 prop bet on Holm, does it mean he would put down $5000? Are you nuts?
     
  8. Fox by the Sea

    Fox by the Sea Lighthouse keeper Platinum Member

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    so what you are saying is that the actual fight is the least of the concerns here.
     
  9. I WILL CUT YOU

    I WILL CUT YOU Calamity from the Heavens Platinum Member

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    So you want Ronda to cut 5 lbs from 150, and Borg to cut 25 lbs from 170+ to meet at 145, and this seems fair to you?
     
  10. Fox by the Sea

    Fox by the Sea Lighthouse keeper Platinum Member

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    the discussion around these forums is that cyborg needs to go to 135. that is even less fair.

    my point is why can't ronda go up to 145.
     
  11. Kelman

    Kelman Banned Banned

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    "Make the weight, Cyborg" is an imbecilic statement.

    If you told Jose Aldo or Conor McGregor to make 135, or told Renan Barao or Dominick Cruz to make 125, or told Rafael dos Anjos or Gleison Tibau to make 145, they physically would not be able to do it even if they tried their absolute best to do so.

    Many fighters are already at their limits, making the weights they fight at, and it's simply a physical impossibility for them to add another 10 pounds onto the stack of weight they already have to lose to make their own weight class.

    Anyone saying "Make the weight, Cyborg" is either:

    - a cretin who doesn't understand the very simple truths above

    - a Ronda fanatic who is terrified of Ronda being smashed (which I don't think would happen anyway, personally)

    - a Zuffa zombie who blindly buys anything that Dana ever says

    There is no fourth possibility here.
     
  12. LouisBolanos

    LouisBolanos Popcorn tastes good

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    It's a simple business decision. Rousey has more leverage than anybody in MMA, and she's using that leverage to maximize her chances of winning against Cyborg, anybody in her position with any business sense would've likely made the same decision.

    If you were making a big bet, say put down $10,000 to win $10,000, and you have a choice between having a risk of 50/50 or improve it significantly to 70/30, would you not make the latter choice? Would you rather pick 50/50 because "HURR I want to prove to the world how ballsy I am?" No, that would be retarded. Sure Sakuraba would do that and it sure got him a lot of just bleed fans but look at how much good it did him.

    Oh they can't physically do it? Christian Bale (6'0") went below 120 lbs for Machinist. That's the dedication of an actor. If the 135 lbs champion is 10x the star Aldo is, if fighting him means getting paid more than the rest of your career combined, then he absolutely should make that weight.
     
  13. Levi_

    Levi_ Silver Belt

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    I am not seeing a solid point in the OP.

    Weight doesn't matter? 70 pound differences are fine? Grappling= MMA?

    No grappling you post a GIF of will ever change the fact that weight is huge.

    If we are going to talk other weight difference matches, no one ever popped into the UFC without EVER fighting in the UFC, and got the champ to move up to a weightclass that didn't exist for a one-off fight. So all of this "well, so and so moved up in weight, Ronda should too" is nonsense.

    Cyborg has offered an opportunity to do like everyone else- get into the UFC, make win a fight or 2 at that weight, and get a title shot; Dana offered her this at the latest UFC.

    The bottom line to all of these "Ronda should move up" threads is, the logic can always go back in the other direction- since your thesis is that weight doesn't matter, it shouldn't matter that Cyborg needs to fight at 135. Speaking of logic, if a fighter is smaller, the benefit of the doubt should go to them in terms of the weight anyway; it makes the most sense in terms of evening the fight to have Cyborg drop down.

    Ronda is the biggest MMA fighter in the world; Cyborg is a nobody to all but hardcore fans. Ronda doesn't need Cyborg; Cyborg needs Ronda. All she has to do is make weight.
     
  14. Rvd Slmr

    Rvd Slmr Silver Belt

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    Bitching for ten pounds is why Ronda shouldn't even be considered the Royce Gracie of MMA.
     
  15. georgejjr

    georgejjr Black Belt

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    You're wrong, in wrestling and judo (ironically enough) 10 lbs is huge for people at 150 pounds. That's why just about every repeat Olympic champion in wrestling in judo has stayed in the same weight division over multiple Olympics - and no one has ever suggested they go up in weight.

    For instance, Satiev is often considered the greatest freestyle wrestler ever. Three Olympic gold medals, six world championship gold medals. Prime candidate for someone to go up in weight according to your reasoning, right? Except he never did, he competed at the same weight Olympics after Olympics, world championship after world championship, and no one in the wrestling world expected him to change.

    And you can go through the list of repeat Olympic champions in judo and wrestling like that, and there are very few exceptions. Even the woman who won judo gold in Rousey's weight division - Masae Ueno (better than Rousey both on the ground and on her feet) won two Olympic gold and two world championship gold without going up. And is famous, no one expected her to go up in weight.

    So why don't people expect wrestlers and judoka who win Olympic gold in one year to go up in weight for the next Olympics? Because 10 lbs at lighter weight divisions makes a huge difference when takedowns are in play.

    Going up in weight is a boxing tradition. Ask yourself if pure boxing or pure wrestling does better in MMA, and then ask yourself which tradition a wrestler or judoka should follow - I'd say follow the tradition that is more successful in MMA. Meaning 10 lbs is a big difference, and stay in your weight.

    The wrestling/judo viewpoint is pretty clear (and has been around a lot longer than MMA). If you're too big to compete at a lower weight division, you shouldn't be competing against people who can make that weight. Cyborg wanting to fight a smaller woman (and if Rousey wasn't smaller then Cyborg could make 135 as easily as she does) sounds odd - if she wants a challenge, shouldn't Cyborg be looking for bigger women to fight?

    No self respecting wrestler or judoka would ask a smaller competitor to go up in weight for a match. "Hey, you won Olympic gold at 70kg last time, come up to 80 kg and wrestle me - I can't make 70kg but I want to wrestle smaller guys, so its up to you to make it to my weight division, because its unfair that I have to compete against people my own size." It sounds silly.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2015
  16. Tramero

    Tramero 50-0 Belt

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    Yeah, because Cyborg has never fought at 135 right?

    If Cyborg hadn't taken roids the story would be different, but she's a cheater, remember it.
     
  17. Levi_

    Levi_ Silver Belt

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    But again, we could turn this statement around- "Bitching for ten pounds is why Cyborg shouldn't even be considered the Royce Gracie of MMA"

    People who think the ball is in Cyborg's court, and that it will somehow lesson Ronda's standing or legacy to not fight Cyborg are delusional. No one cares about Cyborg in the general public, that is only the relatively tiny group of hardcore fans.

    Ronda will move on being considered the greatest, be rich and famous, make movies, and enjoy life without EVER fighting Cyborg. Cyborg will have a meager bank account and little fame, legacy or recognition without Ronda. Cyborg is the one who needs to get on the stick.
     
  18. jamiehunter

    jamiehunter Double Yellow Card Double Yellow Card

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    'Make the weight Cyborg' isn't an argument, it's a statement of what Cyborg needs to do if she wants to fight Ronda.
     
  19. Toxxus

    Toxxus The Ancient One

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    It's great the way you open the discussion by declaring all disagreement with your viewpoint requiring someone to be stupid, stupid and a Dana worshipper or someone who is outright lying to protect the image of a cowardly Ronda Rousey.

    Here are some points I hope you'll find rational:
    1- Cyborg has agreed to fight at 135lbs.
    2- Cyborg's nutritionist said that Cyborg recently contacted him about getting serious about making 135lbs and he's confident they can do it.
    3- Cyborg fought at 145lbs while juiced to the gills on steroids. She has the facial structure, voice and muscularity of a man on steroids. It's reasonably to postulate that if she gets off the juice she can lose at least 5lbs.
    4- Cyborg has repeatedly agreed to fight at 140lbs. So the difference we're actually talking about is 5lbs. In combination with more cardio, less strength training and less food it's completely possible for her to lose a whopping 5lbs.
    5- The real question you should be asking yourself is why Cyborg has chosen to avoid a million dollar payday (with PPV points) when all she has to do is lose 5 f'ing pounds. You're saying a muscle-bound person on steroids can't lose 5lbs when they get clean and change their training regimen??

    The fight's going to eventually happen anyway. Given the recent Holm announcement I suspect they're going to try to set up a Cyborg vs. Tate fight. Tate made the offer in social media recently saying she'd take the fight at 140. This gives Cyborg a chance to cut within 5lbs of her ultimate goal.

    I think you'll find discussion more fulfilling when you consider that people who disagree with you may have some decent points to make.
     
  20. I WILL CUT YOU

    I WILL CUT YOU Calamity from the Heavens Platinum Member

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    That's catering to the heavier fighter, who is heavier because of years of steroid abuse. How is that hard to understand?
     

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