Tapping Out An Instructor?

[Gerbiljiujitsu]

Yeah I am actually suprised at Gerbils post, thoughtout and informative as always but doesn't Gordo feel slighlty disrespected when you don't do your best to get the tap? I mean it doesn't mean you are or think you are "better" then him? as you said you arae a brown in your prime training like an athlete

what is the problem with tapping and just continuing?

I'm going to be honest, the opportunity to submit Gordo has never come up. So please, every let us be clear that I am not saying that I have had an opportunity to submit him and just passed it by.

I would give him my A game, so that I can get critiqued on the things that I'm doing, I want his eyes and his opinion on what I'm doing. But I really feel it would be much more beneficial for me to learn what do do when someone is escaping than to feel his hand tap on my leg or on the mat. I know when I've got something, he knows when I have it too, the only difference is that I dont make him say it.

Gordo has seen me submit at least 100 people. He's seen me sweep, and dominate others. The experience of rolling with Gordo would not be about opening his eyes to my ability to tap him, the experience would be about helping my game.

The time it would take to reset, slap hands, get back into another position would all be lost mat time.

Does that mean that I get offended when people dont try to tap me? LOL, no and depending on who it is and their level of doubt, then I tell them to turn it on and try to tap me. More often than not when someone respects me enough to not try and hurt me, I'll open up my game and show them things, coach them into positions and let them take the tap.

If Gordo ever tells me that he wants me to go and try to tap him, I'll do just that. I would assume that he had some type of motive for this and I would do my best to try and technically walk him down and finish him, I just dont see that happening.

 

[peregrine]

I think that has more to do with your limited scope of things than my thread.

Seriously though, it's funny that you would say that and then proceed to give a long response, with some interesting points. Thus adding to my awesome thread.



I think you misunderstood the thread, or didn't read enough.

I wasn't talking about using strength, in fact I specifically said I held back strength and focused on technique when rolling with a BB. I agree with you that is the only way to go, minimal strength.

I'm talking about, if you find yourself in a position to go for a fight-ending sub that you like, do you go for it or defer to some 'I can't beat my instructor' thing.

hehe.
ok.
I would tap them with technique if available.

 

[peregrine]

What is your approach when fighting/rolling with your instructor?

Do you really go for a submission if the opportunity presents itself, or do you purposefully hesitate or hold back out of respect, or some sense of hierarchy?

Personally, it would seem to me that going full-on is the proper thing to do; if you truly respect your master, then you should honor them by trying to use the techniques they taught you as effectively as possible.

Holding back will not make them any better anyways.

So I think it's better for you and better for them if you go at it as if it were anyone else.

What do you guys think?

The above bold is my reasoning for feeling you implied using all your capabilites which include both strength, speed and power.
'full-on' is full throttle to 'me.' Which means what ever it takes to win a match.

I just don't appreciate certain indviduals who percieve each time I roll with them as the mundials and attempt to take my head off with sloppy wrestling, head locking, and dangerous sloppy techniques. This is when it is obvious I'm going 40% with them and they're a white or blue belt. Save it for competition day, competitive rolls or heavy drilling. These guys are a danger to themselves and their partners.

 

[mrpopenfresh]

As if you can get anywhere close to tapping him.

 

[FXG]

we are learning from each other. no body on earth has perfected grappling/JJ. there are new techniques, styles, and submissions every day. even though my teacher has much more experience than i, he is still human and is vulnerable to submissions...

that being said i would never want to stand with him because he is a brick and could/has KO''d me by accident...

 

[Peteyandjia]

Why do I have to choose my black belt instructor, who is not in competition shape, to test myself against?

Oh, I'm not suggesting singling him out at all. Merely if the situation happens to arise.

I think we have a difference of opinion because we are at different places in our BJJ journeys.

One of the reasons I truly love this subforum.

It would be interesting to me to hear what your opinion is when you're a brown belt or black belt on tapping your instructor.

With respect, the notion that you can only learn something about BJJ from brown belts and above is one that even your instructor would probably disagree with.

I'm going to be honest, the opportunity to submit Gordo has never come up.

I appreciate the honesty.

If it ever does, you will be faced with two distinctly different choices: Throw the game, or finish him.

I propose that you would both benefit more, if you go for the sub.

For him, losing is an opportunity to learn.

And for you... who knows? You could be robbing yourself of witnessing an escape that will blow your mind. And robbing your instructor of the chance to demonstrate it.

I really feel it would be much more beneficial for me to learn what do do when someone is escaping than to feel his hand tap on my leg or on the mat.

It's not about the feeling of getting the tap - I understand that you are respectful of your instructor - it's about seeing if you can get it at all.

I know when I've got something, he knows when I have it too, the only difference is that I dont make him say it.

With respect, I think you are patronizing him here. Accidentally, well-meaning, but still patronizing. If you think 'you have it' when you let him go, that is condescending to his abilities. You only have it when he taps. Anything short of that, and you are underestimating him.

Besides, he's a blackbelt. Are you really concerned about his feelings being hurt tapping in a friendly roll?

Gordo has seen me submit at least 100 people. He's seen me sweep, and dominate others. The experience of rolling with Gordo would not be about opening his eyes to my ability to tap him, the experience would be about helping my game.

Absolutely. I'm not proposing that you enter into ANY roll with your instructor with the mentality of 'I will tap him this time' or any other such petty nonsense. I am talking about that day where you happen to find yourself - suddenly - in a position to finish him.

Personally, I see no purpose in relenting, and every reason not to.

The time it would take to reset, slap hands, get back into another position would all be lost mat time.

You would have whatever specific technique you used tested at the highest level, and he would be thinking about his mistake... isn't that learning?

What is the downside to tapping him out?

 

[nefti]

I know that i might never be able to tap my instructor. he is younger, more atheltic and has trained bjj much longer than I have. However if the team is training for a competition then yes i will go hard because that is what we are there to do. But for selfish reasons when i go against my instructor i would rather make it a technical roll so i can learn from him.

 

[Peteyandjia]

hehe.
ok.
I would tap them with technique if available.

Word.

The above bold is my reasoning for feeling you implied using all your capabilites which include both strength, speed and power.
'full-on' is full throttle to 'me.' Which means what ever it takes to win a match.

Understandable. Though this is a post I made later in the thread, and before you posted anything:

When I'm rolling with someone else I will throw some strength into positions without thinking twice about it; but against a blackbelt, I am extra conscious to be as technical as possible, and not try to power through things.

But yeah, by 'full-on' I meant in your intention. Choking your instructor's neck as if it were any other neck once it's in your sub.

I just don't appreciate certain indviduals who percieve each time I roll with them as the mundials and attempt to take my head off with sloppy wrestling, head locking, and dangerous sloppy techniques. This is when it is obvious I'm going 40% with them and they're a white or blue belt. Save it for competition day, competitive rolls or heavy drilling. These guys are a danger to themselves and their partners.

I agree... though on the flipside, I do think it's good to have a few aggressive nuts in your school because you have to be ready for those type of people in a tournament.

 

[256]

I seem to learn more and have a better time when my instructor and I go slow and steady. We will work for finishes, but I can tell he is letting me have them. It is a learning process.

I love it when I am working for something and he lands a perfect sweep where I can only laugh and enjoy the ride.

One day, I may be good enough to submit my instructor. But I will submit him with the knowledge he imparted on me.

 

[Admles]

I'm only a beginner, so I've never come close to tapping my instructor.

He usually holds back, works on his defence, and lets me go for subs etc, and works on his escapes, and then shows me what I did wrong, or what I could do better. If I leave a silly opening, he takes the sub, then shows me what I could have done to defend.

When he's rolling with the higher ups his game is different, he actively goes for submissions etc. He's been tapped by the higher ups, those who have been with him for many years, but it's rare they get him with the same thing more than once.

 

[nefti]

peteyandjia,
How long have you been training? Because you sound like you haven't been training long at all.

 

[Lutador011]

lol is this thread serious? and who calls their instructor master rofl :icon_twis

I call my instructor "Master LMAO"

 

[Fedorzilla]

I attempt to sub my instructors all the time. I have done so a few times. I don't know the degree to which he was really "giving it his all" in terms of defense, but haven't ever asked either. Maybe they slipped up and you caught them. Good for you, they're blackbelts not Gods and everyone makes a mistake. I once caught my old instructor because he got side control and I somehow caught him off guard and snagged his back arm with my leg, trapped his near arm and had an immediate crucifix. Complete fluke. I don't think it was him trying to "teach me" or let me have it... dude just let his guard down for a split second. Would that opportunity have presented itself if he was attacking like he would in a competition? Fuck no.

Now, if they're "letting" you get the submission, they are trying to show you something or determine whether you're observing all the details you should when executing that finish. If an instructor is insecure and afraid of getting tapped in training, I'm sure this could be a rare event. Does your instructor want you to stop because you're "respecting" him/her or finish it like you should and show the instructor you've learned from them. I think the latter is the true homage to your instructor. If he/she is truly a teacher, they will be glad for you more than upset for their "defeat." Maybe there are instructors out there who let themselves get tapped like others do belt promotions... some get promotions because they need a "confidence builder." There are probably 100 different viewpoints on this amongst teachers.

That said, I think the story below is instructive about how NOT to handle this situation. I have a buddy who tapped his instructor in Brazil. He let the purple belt armbar him and afterwards my buddy (the purple) says "wow, I guess I'm really progressing a lot if I'm subbing you and shit." (something like this). Blackbelt notices the arrogant tone and politely says "ok, why don't we just roll one last time." Schools him, gets him in a triangle, won't finish the triangle but lets him continue to nearly choke and starts raking the gi on my buddy's face and saying "you cocky motherfucker, you think I didn't let you fucking armbar me? I'm trying to get you to learn you stupid motherfucker. If I did this to you every time what would be the point? What would it prove." Lesson learned.

 

[unearth187]

If you roll with someone, especially people better than you, and you are not trying to tap them, all you're doing is slowing your progress, and your partner(including instructors. Just because you are an instructor doesn't mean you stop learning.) progress, and watering down the sport. Obviously submissions should be done with applied pressure, and any competent grappler, including instructors, should know when to tap to prevent injury to themselves. I find the whole notion of somehow respecting your instructor too much to tap him ridiculous. Are you saying you don't respect your normal training partners? I can understand not wanting to hurt an instructor who is too stubborn to tap, but IMO it's no ones fault but their own if they get hurt. And also it is an illogical and incorrect mindset that leads to such situations because ultimately gym "victories" are meaningless. But struggling day in and day out to achieve them IS important and is what builds you and your partner up, and also what differentiates real competitors from aikido/jjj nonsense (we train with full speed and force).

 

[crackbaby420**]

if u can tap your instructor i would say u should switch schools.

"taking it easy on my instructor"

that statement is mind boggling

 

[KaosX]

I haven't yet, nor do I really make it a point of noticing. I'm 2 months into classes now, approaching 24 full hours of instruction.

I'm more concerned with learning positions and escapes. Everyone loves the subs, and I get that, I just want to worry about positional game and escapes personally.

I'm psyched if I can shrimp out of position they have me in, or escape mount or pass guard etc. ...

 

[TalkShowOnMute]

While I am aware of the reference, I still have to wonder whether or not you realize that "sensei" simply means "instructor" or "teacher" in Japanese.

I see it constantly tossed around as if it is some ridiculous title, while terms like "instructor" and "professor" are perfectly acceptable. It's pretty ridiculous.

Who cares? I'll call my "instructor" Captain Doodypants if that is what he requests.

In Gracie Barra, "Professor" is designated in the ruleset as the correct title. So that is what we use.

However, I imagine if I called him sensei, he would not openly object, I might get a funny look or something. Mostly because using "Sensei" might also seem unusual as neither of us are Japanese, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is not technically a Japanese art (although it descends from one), and both the "Professor" and I are speaking English, so an English word seems appropriate. If a non-English word were for some reason be used, it would seem more appropriate to refer to Portuguese instead of Japanese, and then it would still just be.."Professor." In Japanese arts, I see no reason why the culturally-related "Sensei" could not be used.

Otherwise. Doesn't matter IMO.

 

[Fondler]

If I get the submission, good for me. But 9/10 times I will be just trying not to get submitted by my instructors.

If you are constantly tapping out your instructors, maybe they should be the student. :redface:

 

[MMA junkie]

lol is this thread serious? and who calls their instructor master rofl :icon_twis

I do. Master Carlos.

The rest I call Professor or just by first name.

 

[Carrera26]

I asked, just once, for my Judo sensei to show me his "A Game" with a specific combo we were working on, one of his favorites. (O Uchi Gari to Ko Uchi Gari) After a full minute or two on the side of the mat struggling to suck air back into my bruised ribcage, I decided that I learned a lot better not spending 1/2 my training time just trying to recover. And that grizzled 50+ year olds drawing on decades of experience are some of the scariest people you'll ever meet if they wish it to be so.

I had the pleasure or watching 2 high-ranked Judokas Randori and they rarely actually completed their throws. One would have it, both were good enough to know it, but instead of spending time falling and standing back up they just kept going. I thought that that was utterly awesome, nothing to prove and just loving the game.

So while I am sure that I will at some point Ippon my Judo sensei on a fairly regular basis, and I may catch my very good BJJ friends here and there, it's that level of going catch-and-release with a great player that I'm really hoping I hit.