I think it's entertaining when guys go 100000% trying to tap my instructor and he's clearly toying with them, then they get all pissy when he taps them like nothing...I don't think I've ever seen my instructor go all out on someone in class, he's always holding back going at their belt level/pace
Tapping Out An Instructor?
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Tough question, I'd probably go for the submission but not finish it, here is why.
I have gotten to the point in my BJJ career that I can tell the difference between a good instructor and a bad one. If I am training with my instructor (Gordo) it is an absolute honor to grapple with him. He has produced many great fighters both in BJJ and in MMA, what do I accomplish by tapping him?
I'm 29 and in my prime. I train as a professional athlete whereas he spends a lot of his time teaching and supervising (although he does train too). To try and tap him now, when I'm training for competition and he's not, would be disrespectful.
In addition, what would I gain from that? Would it show him how good I am? Does he not realize how great my armbars are? my back control? The man is there every day watching me roll with some of the best people in the world, I'm pretty sure he knows exactly where I am.
In the sense that I dont have anything to prove to him, I dont have anything to prove to myself. Tapping my instructor does not put an extra notch on my bedpost, nor does holding him in side control or on his back...
Does that mean that I would give him an easy time, or not give it my all? No, that would be equally disrespectful. I give him my A game, I transition and and go for submissions but ultimately I'm a fishermen on these days, I catch and release.
I think this mentality about tapping your instructor comes from two things.
1. you want to see how deep your instructors water goes (how good is he really).
and
2. You dont have a stable full of great black belts to train with every day and go all out with. If you did have 10, 15, 20, or 25 blackbelts that you could train balls out with every day you would see there is no reason that you have to measure yourself against your instructor or master.
This is just my opinion and keep in mind that when I roll with my students I am prepared to have the depth of my water tested every day...typically those are the students that you break down once and they relize they can drowned in your pool and then slow down, or they break themselves on you mentally and quit, or they are retards. I try and avoid the retards for my health and theirs.
I have gotten to the point in my BJJ career that I can tell the difference between a good instructor and a bad one. If I am training with my instructor (Gordo) it is an absolute honor to grapple with him. He has produced many great fighters both in BJJ and in MMA, what do I accomplish by tapping him?
I'm 29 and in my prime. I train as a professional athlete whereas he spends a lot of his time teaching and supervising (although he does train too). To try and tap him now, when I'm training for competition and he's not, would be disrespectful.
In addition, what would I gain from that? Would it show him how good I am? Does he not realize how great my armbars are? my back control? The man is there every day watching me roll with some of the best people in the world, I'm pretty sure he knows exactly where I am.
In the sense that I dont have anything to prove to him, I dont have anything to prove to myself. Tapping my instructor does not put an extra notch on my bedpost, nor does holding him in side control or on his back...
Does that mean that I would give him an easy time, or not give it my all? No, that would be equally disrespectful. I give him my A game, I transition and and go for submissions but ultimately I'm a fishermen on these days, I catch and release.
I think this mentality about tapping your instructor comes from two things.
1. you want to see how deep your instructors water goes (how good is he really).
and
2. You dont have a stable full of great black belts to train with every day and go all out with. If you did have 10, 15, 20, or 25 blackbelts that you could train balls out with every day you would see there is no reason that you have to measure yourself against your instructor or master.
This is just my opinion and keep in mind that when I roll with my students I am prepared to have the depth of my water tested every day...typically those are the students that you break down once and they relize they can drowned in your pool and then slow down, or they break themselves on you mentally and quit, or they are retards. I try and avoid the retards for my health and theirs.
KahleyTriangles
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I nailed a beautiful beautiful spider guard sweep to knee on belly once on a brown belt. He escaped knee on belly, got into half guard, recomposed full guard and arm barred me then did it again 3-4 more times in a 6 minute round.
Needless to say, I have never, ever, ever ever come close to even thinking about tapping out one of our brown, let alone our black belts. Usually I just like to play a game that is aggressive but at the same time one of survival where I don't want to give up anything too easy against brown or black belts, even our purples.
I'll get back to you though in about 6-7 years though.
Needless to say, I have never, ever, ever ever come close to even thinking about tapping out one of our brown, let alone our black belts. Usually I just like to play a game that is aggressive but at the same time one of survival where I don't want to give up anything too easy against brown or black belts, even our purples.
I'll get back to you though in about 6-7 years though.
What is the level of your BJJ instructor?
How does he choose to never play bottom? do you just pull guard because you feel sorry for him?
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I have tapped out purple belt assistant instructors but I've never tapped out my black belt head instructor. I always try to though. Every time I roll with him I see it as a challenge and try to give him my best game.
If I were to actually submit him, I wouldn't consider it an act of disrespect, and I don't think he would, either. He would probably just say "good job" and then we would keep rolling. It would only be disrespectful if I were to do a victory dance and start bragging about it.
But when you tap higher-level guys they tend to turn on the jets and try harder to tap you back, so if you tap your instructor, watch out and get ready to tap yourself.
If I were to actually submit him, I wouldn't consider it an act of disrespect, and I don't think he would, either. He would probably just say "good job" and then we would keep rolling. It would only be disrespectful if I were to do a victory dance and start bragging about it.
But when you tap higher-level guys they tend to turn on the jets and try harder to tap you back, so if you tap your instructor, watch out and get ready to tap yourself.
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wow in my limited scope of things this thread is retarded.
for numerous reasons.
Gerbil is one of the few people who get it that have posted. There were a few others.
If we're talking about bjj and your instructor is a legit bb unless you're atleast a purple I do not see someone landing a legit submission on a bb. Of course everyone has a bad day so it may occur once.
To go full throttle on your instructor is retarded imo. If he were to go full throttle on you, it would be likely you would be tied into a pretzel and or subed multiple times in a single round.
Part of doing bjj is control and efficiency. Speed and power is more relegated to wrestling. They do occur in bjj, but by relying solely on them in bjj is a mistake.
It's also retarded for a student to think a bb or any instructor is not trying to improve their game. If a person is trying to improve their game they likely will be trying it on lower belts. This means experimentation. Only by trial and error are things worked out and timing enahnced. If an instructor played his A game on all lower belts all the time not only will he not get better, but his students will suffer because learning is inhibited due to being put in fear because of learned helplessness.
There are times I do go all out on my instructor. But, I tell him in advance and usually I am peaking for an event.
As a low purple belt I still get tapped out by white and blue belts that weigh less and more than me. A major part of the reason I let them tap me is to help them improve their game by letting them play their A game as I play and experiemnt with new material or my C game. If I were to play my A game that is intended for tournament time I'd be mauling those white belts the majority of the time, putting them in a shell and stifling their learning as well as my own. I'd also be pulling out all the dirty pressure moves and inhibiting there breathing by putting incredible pressure on them. body locks, knee on the belly, sitting hard on the mount, so many dirty tricks its crazy and imo plain dickhed.
People must understand their are various intensities and goals of rolling. Not every roll is for a medal. Their are rolls for flow, their are rolls for pressure, there are rolls for floating, there are rolls for specific submissions there are rolls for countless other things. It's also retarded for a 20year old blue belt to go 110% intensity on a 60year old brown or black belt. Wth are you thinking, the bb is legit, but his body cannot maintain a 20year olds pace and strength. If he tries to, it's likely the older player will get injured. Very selfish. People need to take care of their training partners and instructors.
Rolling just for submitting your opponent is myopic. Another limiting perspective is thinking cause you did not tap to a specific submission the person doing the submission could not finish the technique. For myself sometimes people are so intent on not tapping to a move I let it go and just transition. This serves multiple purposes with the transition as part of the goals and the ability to maintain postion and keep pressure another one. Do not think that the person working that armbar could not use his entire body against your elbow and bicep and not break your arm if he wanted to.
People think about it, show respect for yourself and your team mates. EDIT- part of that respect is not injuring them due to going 110% all the time. If you want to go all out, at the least inform them you are going to play hard for this specific roll.
for numerous reasons.
Gerbil is one of the few people who get it that have posted. There were a few others.
If we're talking about bjj and your instructor is a legit bb unless you're atleast a purple I do not see someone landing a legit submission on a bb. Of course everyone has a bad day so it may occur once.
To go full throttle on your instructor is retarded imo. If he were to go full throttle on you, it would be likely you would be tied into a pretzel and or subed multiple times in a single round.
Part of doing bjj is control and efficiency. Speed and power is more relegated to wrestling. They do occur in bjj, but by relying solely on them in bjj is a mistake.
It's also retarded for a student to think a bb or any instructor is not trying to improve their game. If a person is trying to improve their game they likely will be trying it on lower belts. This means experimentation. Only by trial and error are things worked out and timing enahnced. If an instructor played his A game on all lower belts all the time not only will he not get better, but his students will suffer because learning is inhibited due to being put in fear because of learned helplessness.
There are times I do go all out on my instructor. But, I tell him in advance and usually I am peaking for an event.
As a low purple belt I still get tapped out by white and blue belts that weigh less and more than me. A major part of the reason I let them tap me is to help them improve their game by letting them play their A game as I play and experiemnt with new material or my C game. If I were to play my A game that is intended for tournament time I'd be mauling those white belts the majority of the time, putting them in a shell and stifling their learning as well as my own. I'd also be pulling out all the dirty pressure moves and inhibiting there breathing by putting incredible pressure on them. body locks, knee on the belly, sitting hard on the mount, so many dirty tricks its crazy and imo plain dickhed.
People must understand their are various intensities and goals of rolling. Not every roll is for a medal. Their are rolls for flow, their are rolls for pressure, there are rolls for floating, there are rolls for specific submissions there are rolls for countless other things. It's also retarded for a 20year old blue belt to go 110% intensity on a 60year old brown or black belt. Wth are you thinking, the bb is legit, but his body cannot maintain a 20year olds pace and strength. If he tries to, it's likely the older player will get injured. Very selfish. People need to take care of their training partners and instructors.
Rolling just for submitting your opponent is myopic. Another limiting perspective is thinking cause you did not tap to a specific submission the person doing the submission could not finish the technique. For myself sometimes people are so intent on not tapping to a move I let it go and just transition. This serves multiple purposes with the transition as part of the goals and the ability to maintain postion and keep pressure another one. Do not think that the person working that armbar could not use his entire body against your elbow and bicep and not break your arm if he wanted to.
People think about it, show respect for yourself and your team mates. EDIT- part of that respect is not injuring them due to going 110% all the time. If you want to go all out, at the least inform them you are going to play hard for this specific roll.
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My thoughts exactly.
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Another point -
what happens when you get a 175lbs bb instructor and a 250lbs nfl player?
This is not 1993 anymore.
A 27yo @ 250lbs blue belt at 6'3" and 10% bf is going to give anyone big problems. If that blue belt goes 100% all out then what?
The chances of injury multifold. Sure the bb may catch the blue belt 95/100 times.
But if that nfl specimen wants to put the hurt on someone he will, or could easily do so on accident. - sprawling hard, powering out of moves, various
Again retarded thread.
what happens when you get a 175lbs bb instructor and a 250lbs nfl player?
This is not 1993 anymore.
A 27yo @ 250lbs blue belt at 6'3" and 10% bf is going to give anyone big problems. If that blue belt goes 100% all out then what?
The chances of injury multifold. Sure the bb may catch the blue belt 95/100 times.
But if that nfl specimen wants to put the hurt on someone he will, or could easily do so on accident. - sprawling hard, powering out of moves, various
Again retarded thread.
If you're not occasionally tapping out your instructor when rolling in class, then he's not doing the job he should be doing teaching you. To learn to succeed you have to succeed, and as an instructor that means letting the student succeed when they do everything right. Its why national wrestling coaches and world class wrestlers like Cael Sanderson get taken down by 10 year olds in practice - they're teaching their students to succeed when everything is done perfectly. The student makes a mistake and the takedown doesn't work.
Same thing for rolling in BJJ. If you do everything right, the instructor should let you get the tap. If you do something wrong, he will escape. This is true for teaching just about every sport out there - I've seen it in baseball, hockey, tennis, you name it, and by the professionals when teaching their schools.
Now if you roll against your instructor in competition, its suddenly different - he should be going for the win. But rolling in his class is different, he should no more be stopping your every attempt in rolling than he'd be doing it in a drill.
Same thing for rolling in BJJ. If you do everything right, the instructor should let you get the tap. If you do something wrong, he will escape. This is true for teaching just about every sport out there - I've seen it in baseball, hockey, tennis, you name it, and by the professionals when teaching their schools.
Now if you roll against your instructor in competition, its suddenly different - he should be going for the win. But rolling in his class is different, he should no more be stopping your every attempt in rolling than he'd be doing it in a drill.
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Bah, at my gym the 40-60 year old guys go just as hard or harder than the 20-30 year olds. The roughest training partner I can think of at my gym is old as hell and was a college wrestler like 30 some years ago. If you're rolling with him and you run into the wall, he doesn't stop, he'll choke you against the wall, haha.
Honestly I think some of the 20-somethings that train with us are pussies, while the masters' and seniors' division types are all tough old bastards who will kick your ass.
And the only injuries I've really seen or heard of at our gym are just some broken toes and knee meniscus tears, both of which happen to almost everyone who does BJJ.
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Some guys can dish it out and take it. That is quite impressive though. Guess there could be different answers. Maybe the universal law applies - do unto others as they would do unto you
I do believe there is a point at which those older guys will not be able to keep it up.
In my gym we have an older brown belt, he's 60-65. He has a lot of knowledge and for myself I don't see any pleasure in forcing him to tap if I turned it up. This is not to say he would not tap me as he could. But it does mean that in a 5minute round I could crank the intensity up a lot and gas him out then force passes and moves, possibly hurting him on accident.
When I do play these older senior belt guys I attmept to match their intensity and go for flow. I do still go for the tap, but not at competition pressure or pace. These older guys usually have injuries as well, so I am cognizant of those too.
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Thanks for the thought out response, though I disagree with this.
You prove to yourself that your specific technique in that fight, whatever it was, worked. You certainly won't tap out a black belt with shitty technique. So if you tap your master, that means you did something really well that day.
That is a good thing, is it not?
See, I think this is kind of what I am getting at: The only thing that would make me not tap him, is my own ego - 'I don't want to feed it, by beating a blackbelt'. But in fact, THAT would be my ego taking over, without realizing it. 'I'll let my master off the hook.'
Who am I to let a blackbelt off the hook?
If I truly believe - as I do - that tapping him once doesn't mean I'm better than him, then I should tap him if I can. Because 1. I truly respect him, and 2. I truly love BJJ, I give him my best, and try to finish the fight without holding back the techniques he has taught me.
I totally respect your opinion on this though, and thanks for the thoughtful reply.
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He is a brown belt, very good at it, i have a lot of respect for him. He stopped at brown because he came to town and is the only brown belt instructor, he created a good team from scratch. Sometimes BB instructors come to give clinics and they seem to be satisfied at the level of the club.
However i think he drank too much of the Gracies koolaid, he seems to think that judo and wrestling are strength based grappling arts, that you can get out of any position by sheer technique alone and some other things which reflect on the dojo.
When i managed to pass guard they were immediatly on my game, i have a very tight and low top game from years and years of competitive judo a kind of instinctual game that comes from having to be able to pin very well trained men who did not want to be pinned, sure its all about basic control, but it still takes a while to get used.
To make it short, they are not willing to "spaz" and try to make me lose balance or to loosen up a bit the pins, therefore i can float around from pin to pin until i get a comfortable position, they usually just wait until i try a submission to try to get out.
Well one time i simply was floating from pin to pin and i tried an old submission i once saw in a judo book from a position rarely seen which is reverse kesa gatame (the real reverse kesa gatame), and i managed to lock, he praised me and never said much, but he changed his rolling attitude with me afterwards. He always went for top, which i let him have because frankly my bottom game sucks (when compared to my top game).
The problem i think is that he always saw me as the "judo guy" a guy that "uses strength, not technique" and that i win because im too strong or because im too rough with my training partners. All of which is not true, i simply had good top game and never did fast subs i always maintain control of submissions.
The few blackbelts i have rolled with complimented me on my top game and asked me if i trained wrestling before, probably because im also weak vs triangles (hehehehe).
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I think that has more to do with your limited scope of things than my thread.
Seriously though, it's funny that you would say that and then proceed to give a long response, with some interesting points. Thus adding to my awesome thread.
I think you misunderstood the thread, or didn't read enough.
I wasn't talking about using strength, in fact I specifically said I held back strength and focused on technique when rolling with a BB. I agree with you that is the only way to go, minimal strength.
I'm talking about, if you find yourself in a position to go for a fight-ending sub that you like, do you go for it or defer to some 'I can't beat my instructor' thing.
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YeahBee
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Yeah I am actually suprised at Gerbils post, thoughtout and informative as always but doesn't Gordo feel slighlty disrespected when you don't do your best to get the tap? I mean it doesn't mean you are or think you are "better" then him? as you said you arae a brown in your prime training like an athlete
what is the problem with tapping and just continuing?
Due to my size I have a hard time going hard against most people, obviously I go full out (within reason) vs my coach, and I would like to think that it is beneficial for him to, because he does tap me all the time
what is the problem with tapping and just continuing?
Due to my size I have a hard time going hard against most people, obviously I go full out (within reason) vs my coach, and I would like to think that it is beneficial for him to, because he does tap me all the time
LegLockUnicorn
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Mine lets me tap him, Theres to kinds of instructors (that are good) Ones that put up a defense and let you pass the guard if you have the technique right, and those that sit you in there guard all day so that you learn to pass and look for red light so you dont get swept or submitted. If they completely dominate you,there assholes lol
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I can see if a technique works against another black belt, in my case, it doesn't have to be my instructor.
I have a pretty good concept of the things that work at this point, and if I have a new technique (or an old technique for that matter) that I want to test I can do it against one of my peers...some of who are world champion black belts. Why do I have to choose my black belt instructor, who is not in competition shape, to test myself against? If I get it against him and then I cant land it against someone in my age, weight and skill category what then?
Does this question only apply to white, blue and purple belts? What about a black belt tapping his instructor? At what point do people roll their eyes and say "why is he doing that?"
I think we have a difference of opinion because we are at different places in our BJJ journeys. It would be interesting to me to hear what your opinion is when you're a brown belt or black belt on tapping your instructor. At this point I can fairly confidently say that I will gain absolutely nothing from tapping my instructor and neither will he.
