Taking nothing from Ryan Hall's opponent, his inactivity was an unfair handicap

It sucks because he finally got a good fight that would get him a top guy and he shit the bed. He would have done alright against Ige after the Zombie fight IMO.
I see that it came out he broke his hand straight away, but he was having success on the feet with the kicks. He should have actually set the rolls up instead of diving all over the place against a skilled grappler. He could have sat on the outside spamming kicks, forced his opponent to over commit to get some offence back and then dived into the legs.
That's my armchair quarterback opinion. I hope to see him back in there with an actual well rounded strategy. He won't win a title, but he could definitely have some success.

You make good points and after watching the fight again, Hall's strategy wasn't a total bust. He did connect with two back kicks before getting stuffed on the third, and in one of his early imanari roll attempts, he successfully latches onto his opponent's arm for a few seconds, threatening an omoplata and causing Topuria to frantically have to scramble away.

Armchair quarterbacking as you say but Hall's issue was being way too predictable. He literally attempted 15 consecutive imanari rolls before getting finished on the last one. Leading up to that, Topuria twice had Hall's back with underhook tightwaist control (as he did at the finish) but bailed on that to stand back up. Hall brought the finish on himself by spamming yet another spinning back kick, which Topuria anticipated and evaded, then committed to GnP from the same tightwaist back control to finish.

You could up the points for a takedown. That might make it more worthwhile for people. If you start the fight up 4 for landing a takedown and you get penalized for sitting to guard, it really makes that takedown worth it. Wrestlers would potentially dominate BJJ completely if that occurred though. Takedown, side control and ride for the victory.

IMO 4 points for TD would be excessive. That would only increase the urgency to pull guard. I think 2 points for TD with -1 penalty for pulling guard is the right risk/reward trade-off. It would encourage both guys to go for a TD (because they want 2 points) and if other guy takes you down, you're only down one more point than if you had pulled guard. So unless you're completely outmatched on the feet, that incremental point loss is still worth risking the chance to be up two.

I think they found the answer. The answer is MMA. There are missing pieces of BJJ that exist, just like in wrestling and Judo. The way to fix them requires doing other martial arts.

This is the truth, but the irony is that it's already come full circle. Starting in the 90's, TMA guys swallowed their pride and took up BJJ/MMA because it was shown to be more effective in a real fight. But back then, BJJ wasn't the guard pulling sport version that's popular today. Royce, Rickson, et al could win from guard but they rarely if ever pulled guard. They attempted TDs even against top wrestlers because top position is better in MMA with strikes in play.
 
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This issue isn't really unique to jiujitero.

Yeah, if a grappler who can't take down the opponent and can't keep and win the clinch fight faces someone with much better kickboxing they are in for a rough night.

But the same is true in reverse. A kickboxing focused fighter facing someone who they can't stay standing against and have trouble getting up is in trouble.

A wrestler who wins on top control and points can have severe issues with a guy who has dramatically better jiu jitsu and some counter wrestling like in Sonnen vs Maia.


If a guy is good enough in the area of your strengths to neutralize them, and even better in your weaker areas, you're gonna have a hard time.

Is normal.
 
He looked ridiculous, rolling around doing that capoeria imanari sushi roll shit and flailing his legs around, only to get KTFO from a guard to side control transition.

Time to switch to IBJJF rules or lay off the BJJ training and do more wrestling and striking if he wants to fight.


Non-sequitur but I noticed your signature/blurb at the bottom of your screen name. Did you know about this?

 
Let's just be honest guys.

BJJ guys have no idea how to beat anyone with even a moderate takedown defense capability. This is a big big problem in our community where assuming the opponent is going to willingly engage with you in on the ground has become the norm.

Only until you get to an MMA situation and realize your opponent has no interest in willingly engaging with you on the ground.

Two things we are sorely lacking in our community. How to get the fight where we want it to be and how to make sure we keep it there. 1. Finishing the takedown. 2. Securing the position(keeping opponents grounded when all they want to do is stand up).

Go to r/bjj and you will see a whole community with a total lack of awareness about the point you made.
 
What is upsetting to me is how much Ryan Hall praises wrestling/takedowns/etc. in his instructional videos. Everything I hear is anti-sport-BJJ this, and anti-sport-BJJ that. But then his fights look totally unchanged from 10 years ago.

I can only assume our "grappling in MMA messiah" Ryan Hall is trying to send us a message. He is taking these L's to show us that BJJ, as it is, is insufficient. I can't wait for him to stop testing my faith and show me the one true way.
 
What is upsetting to me is how much Ryan Hall praises wrestling/takedowns/etc. in his instructional videos. Everything I hear is anti-sport-BJJ this, and anti-sport-BJJ that. But then his fights look totally unchanged from 10 years ago.

I can only assume our "grappling in MMA messiah" Ryan Hall is trying to send us a message. He is taking these L's to show us that BJJ, as it is, is insufficient. I can't wait for him to stop testing my faith and show me the one true way.

This fight was particularly bad and almost like he's regressed. I was rooting for him and hoping to see SOMETHING new even though he was frustrating Topuria in the first half of the round with the only two MMA techniques he knows how to do.

But he attempted the first imanari roll with 3:50 on the clock and the 15th one with 20 seconds left just before being finished. That's 15 consecutive imanari rolls in 3:30 or approximately 1 every 14 seconds. That's going for one, pausing on the ground face down, ass up to stare at Topuria, standing up to reset and then going straight into another one x 15. That's egregious even by troll standards.
 
Just google "John Fury Eyeball"
Ah yes, famous story that Tyson Furys father gouged a man's eyeball fully out of its socket during a fight over some dispute. I believe he served 5 years for it.

Man was vicious
https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/10945977/tyson-fury-dad-john-father-jail-boxer/

Skyes (victim) offered a different testimony, saying: "It was like he was trying to pull his finger into my brains through my socket."

In gypsy barefist fighting there are two types, a 'square go' meaning standup boxing rules, and 'anything goes' meaning truly anything, not even so called Vale Tudo.

So the question is in such a contest when someone is capable of that, even if you were a BJJ blackbelt would you dare engage a clinch (and how would you do it safely) or would you try and keep distance? Maybe roll on your ass for a leglock might be safer? lol
I wouldn't go near but would try to KO from range.

My view has always been therefore:
Standup fighting is standup fighting.
Vale Tudo is more grappling heavy with both.
True 'anything goes' becomes more standup striking focussed again out of necessity.
 
This fight was particularly bad and almost like he's regressed. I was rooting for him and hoping to see SOMETHING new even though he was frustrating Topuria in the first half of the round with the only two MMA techniques he knows how to do.

But he attempted the first imanari roll with 3:50 on the clock and the 15th one with 20 seconds left just before being finished. That's 15 consecutive imanari rolls in 3:30 or approximately 1 every 14 seconds. That's going for one, pausing on the ground face down, ass up to stare at Topuria, standing up to reset and then going straight into another one x 15. That's egregious even by troll standards.
How does training end up going so badly off in 100% that direction and producing that you wonder.
 
How does training end up going so badly off in 100% that direction and producing that you wonder.

Other than briefly holding Topuria's arm to threaten an omoplata (can't find a gif of that), this is the one other time Hall secured a limb and almost found some purchase. But it's also one of the two other times Topuria probably could have pounded him out, had he committed to GnP instead of disengaging and standing back up.

Hall's rolling attacks can be effective (and have been in the past) if they catch the other guy by surprise. But spamming the same thing over and over like he did was just comical. He took some damage from a Topuria flurry earlier in the round and I wonder if being a little punch drunk turned him into a panic roller.


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Royce, Rickson, et al could win from guard but they rarely if ever pulled guard. They attempted TDs even against top wrestlers because top position is better in MMA with strikes in play.

The have never fought any well rounded fighters or wrestlers
Royce fought Hideo Tokoro who was 40lbs lighter and still got his butt kicked to a draw
Rickson has fought bums and no wrestlers, nor anyone who had a shadow of being well rounded
Don't drop their names because any of them would have gotten starched against the same opponent Ryan did, even if they were in their primes

This fight was particularly bad and almost like he's regressed. I was rooting for him and hoping to see SOMETHING new even though he was frustrating Topuria in the first half of the round with the only two MMA techniques he knows how to do.

But he attempted the first imanari roll with 3:50 on the clock and the 15th one with 20 seconds left just before being finished. That's 15 consecutive imanari rolls in 3:30 or approximately 1 every 14 seconds. That's going for one, pausing on the ground face down, ass up to stare at Topuria, standing up to reset and then going straight into another one x 15. That's egregious even by troll standards.

To be fair to Ryan, he had not much new to show, but Topuria was basically superior to him in every way. He was strong, athletic, much more experienced, way better striking & wrestling, and not a BJJ slouch by any means. He had KO wins and even more submission wins on his resume, which were made up of a variety of subs (triangle/armbar, darce, RNC) that shows he is a very experienced BJJ artist in MMA fights.
Ryan could have worked wrestling and striking for the last 7 years straight and would not have unmatched Topuria. In fact Topuria could very well starch everyone to get up to the top 5 in the division
 
The have never fought any well rounded fighters or wrestlers
Royce fought Hideo Tokoro who was 40lbs lighter and still got his butt kicked to a draw
Rickson has fought bums and no wrestlers, nor anyone who had a shadow of being well rounded
Don't drop their names because any of them would have gotten starched against the same opponent Ryan did, even if they were in their primes

Detecting some Gracie hate here. I'm far from a Royce/Rickson apologist - yes they took favorable match-ups, special rules matches and all the other shenanigans. But you can't compare fighters across different eras - of course a rising UFC contender in 2021 would have starched a mid-90's Royce or Rickson.

My point is that relative to other fighters of their day, they were better rounded than most. Not saying they were the best or even the most well-rounded but they trained and attempted a variety of MMA techniques outside of regular BJJ, which bizarrely is more than we can say of Ryan Hall 25 years later.


To be fair to Ryan, he had not much new to show, but Topuria was basically superior to him in every way. He was strong, athletic, much more experienced, way better striking & wrestling, and not a BJJ slouch by any means. He had KO wins and even more submission wins on his resume, which were made up of a variety of subs (triangle/armbar, darce, RNC) that shows he is a very experienced BJJ artist in MMA fights.
Ryan could have worked wrestling and striking for the last 7 years straight and would not have unmatched Topuria. In fact Topuria could very well starch everyone to get up to the top 5 in the division

This was my point. Hall's not going to match Topuria in striking, wrestling or strength/explosion. But because this is MMA, he shouldn't have to. If he'd mixed it up with basic boxing, maybe some other kicks, sporadic TD attempt, he could have kept Topuria guessing to create openings for his BJJ advantage on the ground. That's what Royce and Rickson did but you could also name any other well rounded (for their time) fighter of the 90's or early 00's.

Maybe Hall still loses but it surely couldn't have been worse than the gameplan he came out with.
 
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Other than briefly holding Topuria's arm to threaten an omoplata (can't find a gif of that), this is the one other time Hall secured a limb and almost found some purchase. But it's also one of the two other times Topuria probably could have pounded him out, had he committed to GnP instead of disengaging and standing back up.

Hall's rolling attacks can be effective (and have been in the past) if they catch the other guy by surprise. But spamming the same thing over and over like he did was just comical. He took some damage from a Topuria flurry earlier in the round and I wonder if being a little punch drunk turned him into a panic roller.


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But what I mean is, how can you get yourself into such a delusional mindset that you can walk into an elite mma fight thinking that shit will work and not coming in with even a plan B?
I suppose this is what some of the elitist sport BJJ niche rabbit hole looks like when it comes to the surface.
 
Having recovered from the shock of seeing Hall's Dark Souls IRL RP, I am admittedly curious as to what technique(s) he was trying to hit. He seemed...focused on the outside wrap on the leg, but I'll be damned if I can figure out what you'd enter from there. It's like a polish worm rider, without the lapel, and both legs are across? To what end?
 


not to beat a deadhorse @Kforcer but here is some behind the scenes of the Imanari-Kenta fight, which will be remembered by three people in this thread. It looked like a knockdown in the first, but only in slowmo can you see Imanari dropping ever so slightly. In the heat of the battle it looked like a legit KD, and I would have no problem with a judge considering it one.
 
But what I mean is, how can you get yourself into such a delusional mindset that you can walk into an elite mma fight thinking that shit will work and not coming in with even a plan B?
I suppose this is what some of the elitist sport BJJ niche rabbit hole looks like when it comes to the surface.

It certainly seemed like a wacky gameplan but not sure Hall is an "elitist sport BJJ niche" guy. I haven't followed him that closely but I got the impression he was a bit of an iconoclast. Either way I guess we all get rooted in our preferred game. I remember rolling with him maybe 4 or 5 times in 2004 when he was a 19 yo blue belt and couldn't believe how good he was at triangles from guard. Clearly he still loves playing off his back.

I feel bad for anyone who watched the entirety of Kenta vs Imanari. Seemed like a pretty clear Kenta win.

Has anyone actually explained what Hall was trying to do? Seemed like he was almost trying to dive into the truck to take the back, or possibly find a triangle in a scramble. Whatever he was going for, he failed pretty miserably.

Having recovered from the shock of seeing Hall's Dark Souls IRL RP, I am admittedly curious as to what technique(s) he was trying to hit. He seemed...focused on the outside wrap on the leg, but I'll be damned if I can figure out what you'd enter from there. It's like a polish worm rider, without the lapel, and both legs are across? To what end?


In the PBP Rogan posited he was going for an "outside heel hook" and this looks like what he was going for:

 
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In the PBP Rogan posited he was going for an "outside heel hook" and this looks like what he was going for:

Thanks! With that said it's still confusing to me to picture it; it seems like the initial step to any imanari roll is shooting your "outside" hand "inside" the leg, whereas he was shooting the "inside" hand "outside" the leg, if that makes any sense. Maybe this is some new fangled entry the kids are into.
 
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