Takedowns vs Enormous Spaz

[Grey Kid]

Hey guys,

Tonight will be an open mat session at my BJJ place, starting from standing. It is an advanced class and there is only 6-8 of us, so we end up sparring with everyone.

As a result I'm always put up against a guy who is atleast 300 pounds. This dude is an idiot, he always spazzes and uses his enormous weight against everyone, smashing with forearms and trying to squash people with his weight. But that part is irrelevant.

The problem is, I cannot take this guy down.

If I establish gi-grips, then he will simply grab me and swing me around like a flail while running toward me. Eventually I end up going under his mountain of flesh.

I could try to keep distance and work for a shoot. But I'm hesitant to because if he sprawls on me, there is a chance my 170pound self is going to get seriously hurt.

How do you guys deal with stand-up grappling against such enormous guys? Strategies? Tips?

 

[Latecomer]

 

[Jagcorps_esq]

Speed and agility, things that most fat people (like myself) lack.

Use arm drags, duck unders to singles, ankle picks, all manner of directional trips, sacrifice throws, etc.

Of course, the simple truth is that BJJ/Judo is not magic. If they guy is much larger than you and you don't have a significant enough skill advantage to overcome that....well, you're kind of hosed.

 

[gungnirBJJ]

I'm going to eat your baby.

get in my belly!

 

[PhillyD45]

Don't shoot on him or get under him. If he is that big and not named Brock Lesner then youshould be able to get him off balance.

Snap his head down then duck under or pull him one way and then go the other and get around him. Also pull and trip works well.

Glad to see you guys are doing takedowns live.
I don't know too much about gi takedowns. Maybe a judoka can chime in.

 

[pacer90***]

Get him moving. A lot. Back and forth, around in circles all of it.

Not only with he eventually be off balance and easy tipping but he'll be gassed cause he's fat.

 

[Doughbelly]

If you are of similar skill, then you're going to have a hard time.

If we take that guy in the picture to be of a similar build to your buddy, you can forget most of your forward throws as well. Lots of judo guys will automatically answer seoi nage as a giant killer solution but as a seoi nage specialist, let me tell you, uke's big belly can prevent a deep enough entry.

I don't know what your size is but I'm 5'7, 150-170 lbs, depending. Here's my general approach to skilled fatty judo black belts. Isolate one side and do NOT let him get square to you. Always stick to one side or the other. Get your grip and go for a side sacrifice throw. They don't have to be clean or pretty, they just have to get both you and your opponent to the ground where you can outscramble him. You want him on his butt and you want to be on your side.

Here are some examples from YouTube:

1.) Tani Otoshi - This is my favorite. I like the rear belt grip and more body contact. It's good if you're strong enough to go force on force.

2.) Yoko Gake - The hook can be deep. Knee behind knee. Works better if you've got strong legs and groin, but if you can establish a viable threat with this and Tani Otoshi, you can start working the following forward momentum throws:

3.) Uki Waza - This is the textbook fatty killer for when he's going forward. If you're timing's bad, you're going to end up with him on top of you. Sounds like this is happening anyways, so you have little to lose.

4.) Yoko Otoshi - Depending on hand positioning and your body type, you might get this to work better than Uki Waza. I like this better because you can force a trip even if your timing is a little off. With Uki Waza, your timing is perfect or the technique fails.

5.) Yoko Wakare - The other textbook fatty killer. This one always looks better for demos and stuff, but I can't fit it in really well with my game. I think it would work well for someone with killer tai otoshi setups and that's not me.

6.) Yoko Guruma - I quit doing these in US competition because idiot refs kept scoring them against me, but you're doing BJJ so only the final position matters. Same risk as Uki Waza, but again, you've got little to lose.

1 & 2, you can get to work from neutral by forcing it. 3-5 really depend on momentum so if your judo timing or your feel for takedown and body weight shifting is bad, you'll screw it up more often than not. 6 is mostly a counter.

 

[Doughbelly]

Oh yeah, I also disagree with this conventional wisdom/notion that against fat guys, you have to be more agile, use your speed advantage, get him moving a lot, etc. People start thinking like that and start jumping around like sugar high monkeys and all that ends up happening is they get tired and Bob's Big Boy does his thing, business as usual.

Big, heavy, low center of gravity guys do NOT change direction well and guess what, if YOU try to force that change of direction, you lose. You have to force him to pick one direction, commit to it and then play with what you get. That's basic judo 101.

Big, skilled guys know this and that's why they put a lot of pressure on you in one direction before they do their thing. Usually, enough for them to control. It's your task to push that pressure over that controllable threshold and then act before he does.

Anyway, that's enough judo theory for one thread.

 

[RemyR]

Try a low single and spin out behind him

 

[TyroneSlothrop**]

If you are of similar skill, then you're going to have a hard time.

If we take that guy in the picture to be of a similar build to your buddy, you can forget most of your forward throws as well. Lots of judo guys will automatically answer seoi nage as a giant killer solution but as a seoi nage specialist, let me tell you, uke's big belly can prevent a deep enough entry.

I don't know what your size is but I'm 5'7, 150-170 lbs, depending. Here's my general approach to skilled fatty judo black belts. Isolate one side and do NOT let him get square to you. Always stick to one side or the other. Get your grip and go for a side sacrifice throw. They don't have to be clean or pretty, they just have to get both you and your opponent to the ground where you can outscramble him. You want him on his butt and you want to be on your side.

Here are some examples from YouTube:

1.) Tani Otoshi - This is my favorite. I like the rear belt grip and more body contact. It's good if you're strong enough to go force on force.

2.) Yoko Gake - The hook can be deep. Knee behind knee. Works better if you've got strong legs and groin, but if you can establish a viable threat with this and Tani Otoshi, you can start working the following forward momentum throws:

3.) Uki Waza - This is the textbook fatty killer for when he's going forward. If you're timing's bad, you're going to end up with him on top of you. Sounds like this is happening anyways, so you have little to lose.

4.) Yoko Otoshi - Depending on hand positioning and your body type, you might get this to work better than Uki Waza. I like this better because you can force a trip even if your timing is a little off. With Uki Waza, your timing is perfect or the technique fails.

5.) Yoko Wakare - The other textbook fatty killer. This one always looks better for demos and stuff, but I can't fit it in really well with my game. I think it would work well for someone with killer tai otoshi setups and that's not me.

6.) Yoko Guruma - I quit doing these in US competition because idiot refs kept scoring them against me, but you're doing BJJ so only the final position matters. Same risk as Uki Waza, but again, you've got little to lose.

1 & 2, you can get to work from neutral by forcing it. 3-5 really depend on momentum so if your judo timing or your feel for takedown and body weight shifting is bad, you'll screw it up more often than not. 6 is mostly a counter.

sweet fuckin post. thanks

 

[Grey Kid]

Sweet posts fellas.

I'll make sure to not square up, cut angles from the side and shoot for outside singles and ankle picks.

He wasn't at class tonight but his best mate was. We got talking and I said something about how difficult it was to take him down. His best mate laughed and replied - 'Yeh don't forget the roids too'

I was alittle shocked but his friend was serious. The guy is 300 pounds and also cycles :icon_neut

I don't know to what extent it affects his grappling, but he is the only guy at the gym who just grabs my gi and twirls me around like an olympic hammer throw.

Let's see what happens next week.

 

[jasond]

This dude is an idiot, he always spazzes and uses his enormous weight against everyone, smashing with forearms and trying to squash people with his weight. But that part is irrelevant.

Actually, I think it is relevant. If that's the measure of his skill level, what's he doing in an advanced class to begin with?

 

[Grey Kid]

Actually, I think it is relevant. If that's the measure of his skill level, what's he doing in an advanced class to begin with?

He's one of those guys who comes on and off, sporadically for about 2+ years. He also won a gold at a state level bjj comp (There was only one other white belt in his division and he still outweighed him significantly).

As a result, my instructor has given him a white belt 3 stripe and allows him to come to advanced classes.

If he were 150 pounds, he couldn't even tap a white belt.

But since he is 300 roided, he mauls smaller blues and even gives purples a hard time.

 

[highlander0]

I agree, try a low single and spin outside and behind him. Once at school during wrestling practice one of the football coaches decided to force one of the players, who was about 250 lbs, to wrestle me. I was 140 at the time of the event, and I had him taken down in about no time using a low single. Granted, your opponent has at least some knowledge of grappling, but a fast low single takes agility (which fat asses lack) to counter

 

[The_observer86]

Low single (shoulder in the knee) or snap down works. You can also bait him into doing double leg by standing upright and looking confused, when he does, step back, circle and snap down (when he's ducking down, pull on neck and back) then spin behind.

 

[Nickynoneck]

If you are of similar skill, then you're going to have a hard time.

If we take that guy in the picture to be of a similar build to your buddy, you can forget most of your forward throws as well. Lots of judo guys will automatically answer seoi nage as a giant killer solution but as a seoi nage specialist, let me tell you, uke's big belly can prevent a deep enough entry.

I don't know what your size is but I'm 5'7, 150-170 lbs, depending. Here's my general approach to skilled fatty judo black belts. Isolate one side and do NOT let him get square to you. Always stick to one side or the other. Get your grip and go for a side sacrifice throw. They don't have to be clean or pretty, they just have to get both you and your opponent to the ground where you can outscramble him. You want him on his butt and you want to be on your side.

Here are some examples from YouTube:

1.) Tani Otoshi - This is my favorite. I like the rear belt grip and more body contact. It's good if you're strong enough to go force on force.

2.) Yoko Gake - The hook can be deep. Knee behind knee. Works better if you've got strong legs and groin, but if you can establish a viable threat with this and Tani Otoshi, you can start working the following forward momentum throws:

3.) Uki Waza - This is the textbook fatty killer for when he's going forward. If you're timing's bad, you're going to end up with him on top of you. Sounds like this is happening anyways, so you have little to lose.

4.) Yoko Otoshi - Depending on hand positioning and your body type, you might get this to work better than Uki Waza. I like this better because you can force a trip even if your timing is a little off. With Uki Waza, your timing is perfect or the technique fails.

5.) Yoko Wakare - The other textbook fatty killer. This one always looks better for demos and stuff, but I can't fit it in really well with my game. I think it would work well for someone with killer tai otoshi setups and that's not me.

6.) Yoko Guruma - I quit doing these in US competition because idiot refs kept scoring them against me, but you're doing BJJ so only the final position matters. Same risk as Uki Waza, but again, you've got little to lose.

1 & 2, you can get to work from neutral by forcing it. 3-5 really depend on momentum so if your judo timing or your feel for takedown and body weight shifting is bad, you'll screw it up more often than not. 6 is mostly a counter.

I would throw in a hiza guruma or something like that .

seriously pull fucking guard on him haha

 

[devante]

Speed and agility, things that most fat people (like myself) lack.

Use arm drags, duck unders to singles, ankle picks, all manner of directional trips, sacrifice throws, etc.

Of course, the simple truth is that BJJ/Judo is not magic. If they guy is much larger than you and you don't have a significant enough skill advantage to overcome that....well, you're kind of hosed.

bingo skill only overcomes when the gap in skills is noticeable if its not perceptible then most likely your gonna get handled.

 

[devante]

He's one of those guys who comes on and off, sporadically for about 2+ years. He also won a gold at a state level bjj comp (There was only one other white belt in his division and he still outweighed him significantly).

As a result, my instructor has given him a white belt 3 stripe and allows him to come to advanced classes.

If he were 150 pounds, he couldn't even tap a white belt.

But since he is 300 roided, he mauls smaller blues and even gives purples a hard time.

so what your saying is even w/inconsistent training, below avg tech, incomplete game and little athleticism a big strong and comparably (not really) untrained guy (in regards to you and other adv guys; is able to come in and basically run through athletic focused conditioned well trained and well rounded grapplers.

i keep saying it, size/strength matters; esp when your opp adv in size and strength are greater than your adv in skill, what worse is he is used to working w/really good guys w/your combo of skills/abilities.

most people AREN'T used to training w/big strong aggressive guys w/education and exp on the ground (esp guys that big)

 

[thecreator]

Who is this guy? what is his record?

It is surprising to see a competitive black belt this fat. I wonder if he can do all the acrobatics included in the warm ups, i.e. somersaults, cartwheels etc, let alone the running of laps around the mat.

 

[Grey Kid]

so what your saying is even w/inconsistent training, below avg tech, incomplete game and little athleticism a big strong and comparably (not really) untrained guy (in regards to you and other adv guys; is able to come in and basically run through athletic focused conditioned well trained and well rounded grapplers.

i keep saying it, size/strength matters; esp when your opp adv in size and strength are greater than your adv in skill, what worse is he is used to working w/really good guys w/your combo of skills/abilities.

most people AREN'T used to training w/big strong aggressive guys w/education and exp on the ground (esp guys that big)

Takedown-wise yes.

When we start from our knees in BJJ, arm drag to back all day. I can handle him on the ground but getting him there without losing position is the challenge.

For MMA, when he comes, which is seldom, it becomes leg kick city. 2-3 kicks later and his ability to use his weight and strength while standing is severely diminished.

That's all I'm saying.