Takedowns to Instant Submissions are Hard

[SummerStriker]

I'm not sure I've ever submitted someone rolling immediately after a takedown unless I grabbed an ankle lock or something, and then only against really new people. On the flip side, I'm not sure I've ever had one put on me. The ability to snap a submission on seems like a really high level ability.

At the place I train BJJ now, I've seen the purple belts get subs during transition. On me personally, their are a couple of brown belts that have hit me with nasty chokes, baseball bat and north/south, where they basically dropped their weight from knee on belly or while moving during the start of a scramble, and landed with the choke applied, not needing an adjustment. It is extremely startling. I think they are fantastic grapplers. No doubt I was vulnerable, and they didn't make me vulnerable, but the window was small and the attack slick.

It seems to me that the ability to do this, throw on a submissions from a dynamic position, is taught from white belt in a lot of styles. No doubt because it is a supreme display of martial arts ability, like scoring a flash knock out as a counter during an opponent's attack. It is what we all want to do.

Silat is practically nothing but training in this - flowing from a supreme counter entry to a beat down, to a take down, to a submission:

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Judo has really technical combinations. If you really jack someone up with a throw they will hopefully lay there and take it, but again, it usually requires a preponderance of skill, despite being included in many basic curriculum.

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For mma or submission grappling, I found a video of Snakebiz doing his thing

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Scary through for sure (watch at 1:15 the dude's foot get stuck despite the coach just explaining how to protect the victim's knee).

I love this sort of stuff. It is fun to practice and feels good to do. Where the rubber meets the road, I never felt these simple drills were what gets you from tit-for-tat grappling to the sudden, violent application of a submission.

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My impression is that the ability to do these things comes from the relentless drilling of common moves including similar basics, killer instinct from a love of fighting, and lots of mat time so that the end can be visualized and jumped to, with the body taking the right action on its own. When it comes to the drilling of actual takedown to submission chains, I feel like they are only directly applicable if they can be practiced at a high intensity and that the technique both includes and requires the normal, likely, healthy reaction of the opponent.

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To even practice the two above drills you would have to already be pretty well educated in grappling.

Which leads me to my question on the topic. Are the basic techniques commonly taught where a submission is applied after a throw but the two techniques are only tangentially related, such as an arm bar applied after an Osoto Gari simply because the arm is presumed to be sticking out thought of as great techniques in and of themselves or are they training drills to accustom the student to the style of learning so that they later can learn higher level techniques?

 

[Ethan]

It's a very common thing to practice in Judo as you said. Ask someone to drill it with you in sparring sometime, it's not a bad thing to practice.

 

[Nnedd]

 

[Ethan]

^^^I'm starting to think kpoz12 is actually just a marketing genius. No denying he's got some nice moves.

 

[magick]

Judo comp classes generally train this, or at least throw into pin.

Makes sense, since not all your throws will be an ippon and it's sort of dumb to just be standing or lying on the ground doing nothing after you throw a guy.

 

[freakroor]

snapdown to guillotine , does that count?

 

[kpoz12]

thnX 4 U're suport theyre mY budy.![YT]agkacDyqMXo[/YT]

aLso IF U educ8te AND notice at o:25 U'll see sumthin U may have not sceene yet b4 w/ mY own FLYING scixxors 2 kneebar ombo etc!
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[jmay829]

Pretty common in Sambo, Reily Bodycomb's highlight video is close to 100% dynamic entry takedowns into quick submissions

 

[Pwent]

when i trained at erik paulsons gym, he had everyone doing 10-20 move chains, where you would transition through like 20 different submissions so you would get in the habit of moving to a sub from every kind of transition

as a wrestler, you learn quickly that its often easier to get a pin or back exposure if you hit it right away off a takedown than when you let the opponent get settled, so when i started doing submission grappling/no gi bjj, i got almost every submission off transitions and almost none from a stable position unless it was a case of forcing a sub through strength

 

[georgegreece]

when i trained at erik paulsons gym, he had everyone doing 10-20 move chains, where you would transition through like 20 different submissions so you would get in the habit of moving to a sub from every kind of transition

as a wrestler, you learn quickly that its often easier to get a pin or back exposure if you hit it right away off a takedown than when you let the opponent get settled, so when i started doing submission grappling/no gi bjj, i got almost every submission off transitions and almost none from a stable position unless it was a case of forcing a sub through strength

add some baits in

 

[100%Jiu-Jitsu]

Yes, this is one of the hallmarks of sambo because the fighters only have a limited amount of time on the ground in order to secure a submission before they are reset to the feet. Thus, it's very strategic to transition directly into submissions while attempting a takedown.

I believe that BJJ would improve as a martial art if the rules were altered so that a competitor could force his opponent to stand back up if the opponent is sitting on the ground without any control. That would make it practical to incorporate a lot more transitional attacks than we currently see.

 

[Pwent]

Which leads me to my question on the topic. Are the basic techniques commonly taught where a submission is applied after a throw but the two techniques are only tangentially related, such as an arm bar applied after an Osoto Gari simply because the arm is presumed to be sticking out thought of as great techniques in and of themselves or are they training drills to accustom the student to the style of learning so that they later can learn higher level techniques?

both

in every grappling style ive trained, we are taught a technique, like say a lateral throw. then taught 2-3 movements from the lateral throw depending on what the person does or how the move results.

but over time you learn to recognize "if he is moving in x way, y sub is going to open up" so you end up making it up as you go, though it will usually seem similar to the pre-planned cycles since those are taught for a reason

 

[SummerStriker]

when i trained at erik paulsons gym, he had everyone doing 10-20 move chains, where you would transition through like 20 different submissions so you would get in the habit of moving to a sub from every kind of transition

as a wrestler, you learn quickly that its often easier to get a pin or back exposure if you hit it right away off a takedown than when you let the opponent get settled, so when i started doing submission grappling/no gi bjj, i got almost every submission off transitions and almost none from a stable position unless it was a case of forcing a sub through strength

That's such a difference of style from the BJJ I spent most of my time learning. Most of the most easily applied submissions come from stabilizing a position > advancing> stabilizing a position > advancing > threatening a submission > forcing a submission off the reaction. I always felt like the slow, methodical suffocation of tight BJJ was like a snake killing a rabbit. Even when an opponent threatens to escape a hold, you preemptively switch to an associated hold, then stabilize that position.

 

[Pwent]

add some baits in

i have improved, im just saying that the usual wrestling mentality is usually to try to catch people in the transition so its natural for wrestlers to go through series of moves rather than settle in and go for one at a time

 

[Gabicho]

I think that in oder to be able to do the "instant" submissions after a takedown, you need to be very good at takedowns, first.

All the "instant" post-takedown submissions i've seen, are always from someone who is skilled at the takedown or throw he's executing, causing - with the aid of gravity and the floor - "shock and awe" on his opponent, leaving them defenseless for a few moments.

I've seen BJJ blackbelts getting smashed with a harai goshi from a judoka or a nasty pickup from a wrestler and then promptly submitted.
In "normal" BJJ rolling, they get smashed by the BJJ blackbelt over and over, not even getting close to a submission (or an advantageous position).

It's possibile to "insta" submit anyone if you smash them hard enough against the floor. Just like it's easier to knock someone out in the very same scenario.

 

[Pwent]

That's such a difference of style from the BJJ I spent most of my time learning. Most of the most easily applied submissions come from stabilizing a position > advancing> stabilizing a position > advancing > threatening a submission > forcing a submission off the reaction. I always felt like the slow, methodical suffocation of tight BJJ was like a snake killing a rabbit. Even when an opponent threatens to escape a hold, you preemptively switch to an associated hold, then stabilize that position.

that method is pretty traditional bjj, and its important so you can learn to not lose your position, but its pretty hard to get a submission at the higher levels between closely matched opponents, if your opponent can see it coming.

for example, i roll with people who are much better at bjj than me, but i dont think ive ever been subbed in someones guard for months unless they are countering something i do, or go through a series of moves and go through them faster than i can defend, like im still trying to defend the armbar while they switch to a triangle faster than i can switch defenses.

 

[RJ Green]

it's not that hard...

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even a complete idiot,

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with enough practice,

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can get pretty damn close to 'instant'.

sorry for the potato quality. they're gifs of facebook videos older than my dog.

 

[Dirty Holt]

The trick is know which subs will go with which takedowns. Some are damn near impossible to mix. Some takedowns are really hard to sub off of.

 

[Grappleboxing]

Harai Goshi with a Kimura grip?

 

[rmongler]

when opponent is settled down, is not time for submission, is time for presh.

then he is unsettled.