Takedowns should not score big at all

[Krayv]

Heh. That's blatant disregard for Shields' world-class eyepoking technique.

Seriously, though. One fighter will often have an advantage in a given position due to his skill set and how he matches up with his opponent, but that something he has to show by results. An inherently mechanically superior position is something else entirely.

I actually said before that fight that neither of them would be able to take each other down, so it was going to be a stand up fight that looked like awkward foreplay.

I thought I was joking.

I agree though. I believe top position should count for something, but it should pale in comparison to offense and effective grappling.

 

[UJustGotChaeld]

Ok, I'm in complete agreement to this one. No problems at all with this point of view. Takedowns without control or damage done are ridiculously overscored.


This is exactly how it should be. Top position has inherent value for one fighter, both standing hasn't.

I believe the problem is not always position itself. Being on the bottom opening your opponents head up with elbows while he throws zero strikes should give the round to the guy on bottom. It doesn't.

 

[Pem123]

they should be scored more than Knockdown IMO

 

[RachelZane**]

because fighter who get takedown control where the fight take place
octagon control bruh

 

[Bloodworth]

After training for a few years I would like to hear wrestlers on the college level.....whats more hard to complete....a take down or preventing a take down....

So far for myself the take down seems a little easier then preventing 1....Your opponent can lay his weight on you and use gravity and momentum to get a take down...seems like there are more variables that help

When preventing...it seems like im using more energy carrying a persons weight trying to greco them off...

judges need to understand the difference...

 

[Groundmaster]

Why on earth do takedowns in and of themselves score big on the judges scorecards? its not like they actually do anything what so ever by themselves?!

How about scoring whats actually done from getting that takedown??

How about not scoring punches that don't stun the opponent and therefore do not lead to follow up punches - I mean its not as if they do anything.

 

[Groundmaster]

theres a risk trying a kick to the head, theres a risk throwing a punch etc,

So what you say is kicks and punches should not be scored as highly?

 

[Groundmaster]

When preventing...it seems like im using more energy carrying a persons weight trying to greco them off...

Not that I am a wrestling expert - but in my experience 9 out of 10 times I stuff a takedown I end up sprawling on top of the guy who wanted to take me down so he has to carry my weight.

What kind of takedowns do your opponents attempt if defending them places you beneath your opponent?

 

[Perrichet]

Your example: Kennedy/Bisping

Without the TD's being scored 'highly' Kennedy would've still won. Poor example

 

[MarloStanfield]

So what you say is kicks and punches should not be scored as highly?

sorry you cant comprehend the argument bra

 

[Szwok]

they should only score if there is a follow up to the TD.

 

[Just Feed]

This scoring system clearly favours wrestlers, which I think is unfair considering it's Mixed Martial Arts.

Although I do see them as important, then why not also score when you stuff a takedown attempt? Like in the Gus Jones fight, Gus stuffed something like 8 out of 9. It's absurd for that not to be worth anything.

I don't think you should get any score though if you just take down and do absolutely nothing on the ground. Like Pickett v Seery, when Seery was clearly winning the stand up fight and then Brad just took him down and did almost nothing. It seems like a cop out, unless you actually strike or go for submissions.

 

[Bubson Bubba]

Takedowns like the ones Hendricks had on Condit , the slammy ones , should be scored. Takedown should be scored for the impact it has.

 

[D3thr0n3d K1ng]

Take downs show grappling dominance. I have no problem giving a decision to a fighter who takes his opponent down multiple times in decisive ways and his opponent cant mount an offense.

But a guy who takes his opponent down once and just lays on him? Nope.

Also, effort to finish the fight should be scored higher. If Fighter A takes down Fighter B 3x in a round, but every time Fighter B nearly catches him in a submission then Id give the Round to Fighter B.

 

[Irenaeus]

I actually said before that fight that neither of them would be able to take each other down, so it was going to be a stand up fight that looked like awkward foreplay.

I thought I was joking.

I agree though. I believe top position should count for something, but it should pale in comparison to offense and effective grappling.

I believe the problem is not always position itself. Being on the bottom opening your opponents head up with elbows while he throws zero strikes should give the round to the guy on bottom. It doesn't.

Yeah, I think we mostly agree here. It's just when I hear claims that they shouldn't be scored, or count as little as a jab that I think people are going overboard with a wide margin.

This scoring system clearly favours wrestlers, which I think is unfair considering it's Mixed Martial Arts.

Nah, it's not about making it fair regardless of style, it's about favouring what works. Neither is it about how hard it is to perform, as one above you claimed.

Also, while the scoring currently favours grapplers somewhat, most constraints on the actions of fighters favour strikers. Disallowed attacks, stand ups, gloves, rounds.

Although I do see them as important, then why not also score when you stuff a takedown attempt? Like in the Gus Jones fight, Gus stuffed something like 8 out of 9. It's absurd for that not to be worth anything.

Defense doesn't score, and it shouldn't. That would be discouraging activity and agression. Defense is its own reward.

 

[Sigmafight]

Your example: Kennedy/Bisping

Without the TD's being scored 'highly' Kennedy would've still won. Poor example

On the contrary that was a great example of how scoring an unsignificant move highly skews the fight overall.

The fact is, we dont know who would have won in the Bisping Kennedy fight, because there was no fight. There was one guy holding on to another guy, preventing that guy from getting off offense, but at the same time completely neautralizing his own output aswell, which gets us where? exactly nowhere.

You can control someone til the end of the earth, but you still havent defeated your opponent, untill you actually defeat your opponent, catch my drift? Which is why a change from a standing position to a lying down one should not be rewarded with points, but rather what is actually done to the opponent in terms of damage/fight finishing moves

Simply holding someone, and then doing absolutely nothing, should have as little affect on the judges scorecards as it does in determining a winner of a "fight". Which is what a takedown is right up untill it actually leads to something, but we shouldnt score what it might mean of potential output, but what it actually does. Therefore the move itself/change from standing to lying down should not in and of itself be a point rewarding move, and especially not as big as it is today. Some people fight from the top, some people from the bottom, lets judge based on what actually happens.

 

[Rag1ngBull]

because it basically means you are avoiding a fight, which is the exact opposite of what you came to do, and what we paid to see?

Didn't Nick Diaz said this in a interview one time that in the UFC u can win by avoiding the fight and that in Pride was different and because elbows were illegal you could stand up easily beacuse the fighter on top of you has to make more space to punch you then to throw elbows

 

[Irenaeus]

On the contrary that was a great example of how scoring an unsignificant move highly skews the fight overall.

The fact is, we dont know who would have won in the Bisping Kennedy fight, because there was no fight. There was one guy holding on to another guy, preventing that guy from getting off offense, but at the same time completely neautralizing his own output aswell, which gets us where? exactly nowhere.

You can control someone til the end of the earth, but you still havent defeated your opponent, untill you actually defeat your opponent, catch my drift? Which is why a change from a standing position to a lying down one should not be rewarded with points, but rather what is actually done to the opponent in terms of damage/fight finishing moves

Simply holding someone, and then doing absolutely nothing, should have as little affect on the judges scorecards as it does in determining a winner of a "fight". Which is what a takedown is right up untill it actually leads to something, but we shouldnt score what it might mean of potential output, but what it actually does. Therefore the move itself/change from standing to lying down should not in and of itself be a point rewarding move, and especially not as big as it is today. Some people fight from the top, some people from the bottom, lets judge based on what actually happens.

This entire post is such bullshit, from the description of Bisping-Kennedy to the reasoning on scoring. Fighting from a mechanically inferior position while being protected by the rules should't be scored equally at all. Being on your back all round should lose you a fight unless your effective offensive output is higher by a solid margin.

 

[Robb the Wolf]

Defense doesn't score, and it shouldn't. That would be discouraging activity and agression. Defense is its own reward.

Why should it be discouraging activity and agression? I think it's the opposit, there where a LOT of activity and agression om the feet, therefore should the takedown be looked upon as discouraging activity and agression, if anyting.

Also, if the TDD is its own reward shouldnt the takedown it self be its own reward?
Hell, lets stop scoring fights and let everything 'be its own reward' and the only way to win a fight is to get the KO or sub....

 

[ib313]

Takedowns should be scored, but they should maintain it long enough to inflict some damage. escapes should count for something