Takedowns for BJJ?

[redaxe]

But it's still a ground-oriented grappling style, so even in places that teach a good deal of takedowns, you'll still see more of an emphasis on ground fighting than you will in, say, judo (can't pick wrestling because there's a lot of work on the mats involved, just radically different from BJJ).

Good point that I think people on Sherdog forget. They seem to think wrestling = no-gi takedowns, when the reality is far from it. In HS wrestling in the 1st period you start standing, but if it doesn't end with a fall, the 2nd and 3rd period start from the knees in the referee's position... right? Wrestling is not only about takedowns...

 

[SuperSuperRambo]

Good point that I think people on Sherdog forget. They seem to think wrestling = no-gi takedowns, when the reality is far from it. In HS wrestling in the 1st period you start standing, but if it doesn't end with a fall, the 2nd and 3rd period start from the knees in the referee's position... right? Wrestling is not only about takedowns...

Absolutely correct. 2nd and 3rd periods you start from referee's position, with each wrestler getting to pick top or bottom, one picks for the 2nd pd and one picks the 3rd. Of course sometimes they will opt for starting on the feet, and sometimes the top guy will let the bottom guy up if he's confident he can take him down again, but in general you're right.

 

[knoxpk]

Absolutely correct. 2nd and 3rd periods you start from referee's position, with each wrestler getting to pick top or bottom, one picks for the 2nd pd and one picks the 3rd. Of course sometimes they will opt for starting on the feet, and sometimes the top guy will let the bottom guy up if he's confident he can take him down again, but in general you're right.

Yep, as soon as one guy gets taken down in the 1st then it is a ground fight all the way from then out if no one can escape the top mans control.

 

[YeahBee]

Can you please elaborate on this?

I always thought the the upright stance which is enforced in Judo was for another reason.

Well it gives YOU access to an over the head grip which is cash money

To throw or footsweep you need to use your hips, with throws well you are closer to turn into it if you stand up more straight, closer = better and faster, not hunched over with your ass sticking out. Some BJJ guys put down judo throws and say stuff like of you will get your back taken, it doesn't work bla bla bla, well if you are ttrying to enter from way far out of course it fails

For footsweeps you use your whole body to off balance the other dude, , if you are more upright you can use your hip more, just like striking arts are more upright

you can't kick or punch well fro ma low boxing stance now can you? why? because you can't use your hip

With a low hunched down stance your are also limiting your defense vs single/double legs to "only" sprawl

and of course you can move quicker in general uprigth rather then hunched out

 

[CyberFreq]

Upright stance FTW. It's the only reason I don't get taken down often, otherwise people would be head-snapping me left and right.

 

[lechien]

Thanks, I thought they enforced the upright stance in Judo so you could see more spectalur throws.

 

[CyberFreq]

Thanks, I thought they enforced the upright stance in Judo so you could see more spectalur throws.

Well, maybe a little this too.

 

[Auspex]

what kind of school teaches overcommited throws? if it ends up being overcommited later in a match is a another thing, people are much better at defending at those levels so it ends up looking like that.

An uprigth stance also gives YOU more attacking options

If you train regularly you will learn all the throws (even the banned one) at least offensivly

People should not look down on the upright stance...

When I'm bent over I can only move a few directions really well. If I want to attack with anything other than a double single I first have to STAND UP to do it. If you stand up to attack me you've telegraphed yourself like you can believe.

In terms of defense, if a guy is bent down what kind of attack do I need to worry about, OH YEAH, some sort of leg attack. If that's all you go going for you then it's much easier for me to defend it. And since Im' in a very neutral position, I can react in a lot more ways that someone hunched over.

I'm not gonna say zombie walk up to someone. But be light on your feet and ready to move and you'll do well.

 

[fourfif**]

Upright stance, ftw. In judo bending over will get you sumi'd so fast it's not even funny. In wrestling people are under this misguided idea that you should be hunched over bent at the waist....? Head up, back straight.

 

[SuperSuperRambo]

Upright stance, ftw. In judo bending over will get you sumi'd so fast it's not even funny. In wrestling people are under this misguided idea that you should be hunched over bent at the waist....? Head up, back straight.

Personally, I take more of a judo stance when in the gi, and a lower stance when doing no gi (my wrestling stance). But that doesn't mean you have to be hunched over. You should still have a proper posture and be well balanced (shoulders over knees, head up, etc.). But that's just me. My instructor has more of a greco stance in no gi and I can't take him down with anything.

 

[Auspex]

I walk right up to people straight up and they look so confused.

I love it.

 

[CyberFreq]

I used to wrestle with a traditional wrestling stance - rolled shoulders, slightly hunched but not over-leaning.

Then my coach intro'd me to the world of clinch wrestling, and I learned to love the straight stance.

Also, while hunching is good for a shot, not so good for more reliable takedowns that I prefer - trips and throws (hip throw); plus, nothing better than being able to get that HUGE forward step from the opponent when you just drag them forward for the ankle pick setup.

 

[Daihlo]

Heres a clip from the Takedowns for BJJ lesson with Braulio

The full lesson looks at takedown techniques, gripping, posture control and more.
Available as a part of the ongoing 'Invisible Jiu Jitsu' series on CageFilm.com - Martial Arts Instruction Online

YouTube - Braulio Estima - TakeDowns for BJJ Sample from Lesson on www.cagefilm.com

 

[Carrera26]

I love to bounce the crap out of people in the wrestler's stance in gi. Get a high collar grip and use your whole (well-centered) bodyweight to force them to bob up and down, up and down. Bent over, they have no leverage and can't stop you. Whether they panic and overreact or let it happen for a couple seconds, you have them totally off-balance and (even better) you have a totally predictable timing for your throw. You know exactly when they're going to be light on their feet and any kuzushi you do on the up-bounce is seriously magnified. It's like turning their torso into a human springboard.

A good drill for marrying standing and groundwork is "Double Ippon" matches. You don't win till you get 2 points. Also, pick up David Camarillo's book "Guerilla Jiu-Jitsu". It's very good at showing ways to control the position on impact and transitioning to a submission and/or control.

 

[Auspex]

I love to bounce the crap out of people in the wrestler's stance in gi. Get a high collar grip and use your whole (well-centered) bodyweight to force them to bob up and down, up and down. Bent over, they have no leverage and can't stop you. Whether they panic and overreact or let it happen for a couple seconds, you have them totally off-balance and (even better) you have a totally predictable timing for your throw. You know exactly when they're going to be light on their feet and any kuzushi you do on the up-bounce is seriously magnified. It's like turning their torso into a human springboard.

A good drill for marrying standing and groundwork is "Double Ippon" matches. You don't win till you get 2 points. Also, pick up David Camarillo's book "Guerilla Jiu-Jitsu". It's very good at showing ways to control the position on impact and transitioning to a submission and/or control.

Great advice, Carrera!!

During my nogi Judo classes, I teach transitions to ground as much as I teach the throw itself. It really forces you to control your throw, so that you're able to capitalize on the brief, "WTF!?" moment your opponent might have when he goes head over heels and slams into the mats.

 

[YeahBee]

I actually changed my stance somewhat when I started doing BJJ, I am way more upright NOW then I was before. and it has carried over into judo now aswell. I am way more relaxed now to, you tense up to much when you are in a crouched down stance

I am not a very good judoka so I compensated by being a defensive one (I am a big dude so it worked well) now most of the time I got to be the one attacking as bjj guys facing me don't go for takedowns that much

 

[Rod1]

Can you please elaborate on this?

I always thought the the upright stance which is enforced in Judo was for another reason.

Yes, its been "promoted" but until the new rule change it was not enforced.

The reason its enforced its because its more defensive in nature than the natural posture. Imagine that shizen tai (natural posture) are the open guards while jigo tai (defensive posture) is the closed guard or 50/50.

The natural posture allows more attacks because you can move more quickly and freely around, judo its heavily dependent on footwork for imbalance, being able to move faster allows more offensive options.

I always use natural posture, because i felt in control of the fights when i had it, i even used a left guard, because i had good counters and defense from attacks from the right but it was left attacks what got me. Kind of unorthodox as most people will have a right posture that defends against right attacks, which are what most people do better.

Using the natural posture for so many years against turned judoka wrestlers have given me a lot of advantage in BJJ, where everyone assumes a wrestling stance. In wrestling its different because the lack of grips limits mobility advantage.

What certain athletes were doing is using wrestling along with judo, which turned their matches into wrestling matches, which were ok, and they were fun when they could turn it their way. It was not the ultimate style, they simply had their style.

This style was also accentuated by the fact that newaza is limited by referees, they simply stalled then shoot and if they failed they turtled up hard until match restarted. That lead to "boring" (in the eyes of non-judokas) matches, and therefore the IJF tried to fix a mistake with another.

IMO if newaza was not limited by the referees, that would not have been a problem.


Another possible theory of the leg ban is more on the conceptual and philosophical side of judo, some people take the soft aspect of judo too literally and shun on anything resembling pitching strength vs strength, defensive posture is associated with strength vs strength and its usually a complex pattern of pushing and pulling from a strong base wanting to make an opening, which is epitomized in the go no kata which is not officially accepted, even though its the oldest.

YouTube - Judo: GonoKata

What some fail to realize is that the Go no kata, its not about winning with strength, its about using strength smartly and its still judo.

""Is there, then, any principle which never fails of application? Yes, there is! And that is the principle of Maximum Efficiency in Use of Mind and Body." Jigoro Kano.

Judo its not against strenght, its not about weak vs strong, its about using strength SMARTLY that means with technique. Its not the concept of using strength what judo its against, its the concept of wasting strength.

 

[ichimonji]

Kinda of a very individual question but .. I like inside trip off a fake seoi .. but I also like outside trips on occasion.

What does you opponent specifically do to make you want to throw an inside versus and outside?

Is is simply the way they distribute their weight?

 

[Carrera26]

Most of that is both personal preference and how deep you got in your initial Seoi. If they blocked you out and you didn't get full hip penetration or they side-stepped and are now at an angle to you then you are already in the natural position for Ko Uchi (inside trip). If you got deep and turned but they just dropped their weight and maintained good posture then it's easier to go for O/Ko Soto Gari because you don't have to shift your relative position at all, just turn and go.