Takedowns for BJJ?

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by Daihlo, Oct 28, 2010.

  1. Daihlo

    Daihlo Orange Belt

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    YouTube - Braulio Estima - TakeDowns for BJJ Sample from Lesson on www.cagefilm.com
    Clip from the lesson.

    Just released a new video lesson with Braulio Estima covering takedowns for BJJ and got me thinking about how much people train this area within BJJ in general...

    I work with al lot of Judoka, Wrestlers, MMA fighters and BJJ fighters, the first 3 all seem to train a large % of their 'syllabus' looking at standing and takedown techniques, whereas most BJJ classes I goto are by far the other way round.

    How much standup and takedown technique do you guys train, and do you look to other styles for these techniques, or just work within BJJ?


    Tim
    CageFilm.com
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2010
  2. RedAger

    RedAger Amateur Fighter

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    We will usually drill 1 takedown at the start of class for 5-10 minutes but when it comes to open rolling time we don't have the mat space to start from the feet which is unfortunate.
     
  3. redaxe

    redaxe Silver Belt

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    The GB school where I train does a lot of takedowns. We just moved into a new gym that is much bigger, giving us more room to practice them, and we added three takedown-only classes per week (one gi, taught by a judo black belt and two no-gi, taught by a former HS/college wrestler). It's awesome.
     
  4. RDCC**

    RDCC** White Belt

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  5. ozyabbas

    ozyabbas Purple Belt

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    I have started doing some judo at a good judo gym. I am finding it hard to make them compatible. In judo I can't go for the legs, grips are illegal that are legal in jiu jitsu, there is less stiff arming in judo which is quite an obstacle for throwing people in jiu jitsu and judokas tend to teach in a way that overcomit to throws. In judo they would get the ippon, in jiu jitsu I would end up on top or taking the back.

    In judo, they use a much more upright posture which might get me taken down in jiu jitsu if they are good at double and single leg takedowns.

    I still want to stick with the judo for its own sake, even with its funny rules, its still fun.
     
  6. jrock89

    jrock89 Orange Belt

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    We always start our rolls standing, unless someone is injured. I hear people saying they start on their knees every time they roll at different gyms but I think that is ill advised because they never develop a stand up game.
     
  7. greasemonk3

    greasemonk3 Amateur Fighter

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    I've always learned takedowns from the BJJ schools I've trained at, but we never drilled them enough for me to feel confident on going for them in a tournament. Fortunately my school has a club wrestling team which I've been going to since February.
     
  8. MMABullrider

    MMABullrider White Belt

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    We rarely work on stand up techniques at our gym's BJJ classes. We also typically start rolling from our knees or from seated. The reason we don't usually start standing is supposedly because it usually ends up with both guys defending and not taking shots, when if they started seated or kneeling, they would be working technique instead of just circling around.

    That said, we are free to start sparring from standing, and I typically ask the guys to start standing with me, especially some of our Judoka's. But I keep the pressure and either bait them to shoot or throw me, or if they wait too long, I'll throw them instead.
     
  9. SuperSuperRambo

    SuperSuperRambo Senior Moderator Senior Moderator

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    We start from the feet a good amount where I train. Of course a lot of times it's positional work, or "king of the guard" in which case obviously you start in the closed guard. But we start from the feet regularly.

    In no gi we almost always start from the feet. If we start from the knees in no gi it's usually a warm-up or something. Sometimes in no gi we just do takedowns.

    Overall, we involve a takedown in 1-2 classes per week, sometimes leading into some ground work, sometimes just focusing on the takedown for that class, depending on how familiar we are with the takedown.

    We also have a dedicated judo class, but it's at a time that I can never make. As in all bjj, there is more emphasis on the ground work where I train, but at the same time our instructor discourages guard pulling and considers it important that we can execute takedowns. He seems to prefer judo-style takedowns, which is good for me because my previous background was wrestling and my judo sucks.
     
  10. SuperSuperRambo

    SuperSuperRambo Senior Moderator Senior Moderator

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    I've heard people encountering the same problems in studying pure judo.

    Fortunately our judo instructor, aside from being an international judo competitor, is also a bjj student (recently reached purple belt) so he understands the bjj game and teaches his judo in a way that is compatible with bjj.
     
  11. knoxpk

    knoxpk Black Belt

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    Interesting, not to be a dick but it WILL sound dickish...some would claim that BJJ HAS takedowns..in fact angrily so!! What is your thought on this?

    Rambo you wrestled, what would you say the level of your TYPICAL purple belt is in takedowns?

    Also what would you "estimate" your typical BB instructors level to be in takedowns?

    Just curious
     
  12. redaxe

    redaxe Silver Belt

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    Well both the Judo BB and the wrestler who are teaching the takedown classes are also BJJ blue belts, and they are teaching us takedowns FOR BJJ. They were asked to teach these takedown classes for us because they have the best takedowns out of anyone in our school due to their previous judo/wrestling experience. Of course BJJ has takedowns, and everyone at our school knows at least some takedowns, it's a question of how much practice/experience each guy has. The guys who are interested in having good takedowns come to the takedown class. The guys that are content to pull guard don't bother to come.

    Does that answer your question? If not, then I'm not really sure what your question is...? If your question is "Does BJJ have takedowns?" My answer would be "Yes, but they are optional."
     
  13. SuperSuperRambo

    SuperSuperRambo Senior Moderator Senior Moderator

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    Good questions, and both very hard to answer. I'll take the second one first.

    My instructor is very hard to take down. I've never taken him down cleanly. I caught him with a fireman's carry and a single leg (one time each), but he reversed me on both the second we hit the ground before I could come close to securing the takedown. He is competent with freestyle wrestling takedowns, and has good judo and greco. His sprawl hurts. But, he is also a former MMA fighter, and competed in San Shou, which involves throws, so maybe that has something to do with it.

    And that's why it's hard to answer for the "typical" black belt, or even purple belt for that matter. First of all, there is a wide disparity. A ridiculously wide disparity. I once rolled with a black belt who, upon me telling him that I wrestled through high school and was fairly decent, admitted that his takedowns sucked and pulled guard when we started from the feet in no gi (and promptly subbed me). On the other hand, there are guys like my instructor who come from more of a fighting/self defense background and stress being at least competent in takedowns. I put many of the Gracies in that category, believe it or not. They weren't beats on the feet, but many of them (those who trained it as a martial art) had decent judo and could take someone down (not Royce though, so don't pull that one on me). I recently rolled with a brown belt no gi, and I couldn't take him down despite the fact that he was feeding me a single so he could work on counters (and then mauled me on the ground). And many BJJ practitioners have a prior grappling background (such as myself, or those who are far better than me in wrestling/Judo), so while considering themselves a BJJ practitioner, they may also have excellent takedowns. And then in the middle you have black belts who although they are sport competitors, prefer top game, and are good at takedowns. Those guys I would consider at the level of lower collegiate wrestlers, or recreational black belt judoka (though I have little basis for comparison). The guys who aren't good at takedowns at all make up 60% if I had to guess, but because that 40% remaining is significant, it's hard to generalize that. Guys with prior backgrounds in takedowns tend to teach BJJ with more takedowns involved.

    So for the black belts, you have guys who admittedly suck at takedowns, guys who have prior training and therefore excellent takedowns, and guys in the middle who by the time they reach black belt are actually rather good, but inevitably not as good as someone with pure wrestling or judo training.

    As for the purple belts....the same issues come up. I'm a purple belt myself, and I haven't competed in wrestling for 6 years. I'm relatively confident that I could take down most purple belts my size who don't have a prior background. However I have been taken down in competition by guys who I'm pretty sure had no prior backgrounds in judo or wrestling. I can take down all the blue belts I train with regardless of size (I'm a small guy) at least in no gi. The one other purple belt we have is much larger and takes judo, but I still get him down from time to time. In competition, most guys I've faced do tend to pull guard, and a good number of guys at the purple belt level just have atrocious takedowns and can't even do a proper penetration step. So again it varies. You have guys with prior takedown experience, guys who are pretty competent (like the ones who have taken me down), and the guys with virtually no takedown skills at all.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2010
  14. SuperSuperRambo

    SuperSuperRambo Senior Moderator Senior Moderator

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    I know this wasn't directed at me, but I'd like to take a shot at answering it in a way that will piss some people off.

    BJJ does have takedowns. It's a hybrid art from its roots, being based in large part on judo. Every couple of decades or so there are some new things that the practitioners start to incorporate, which are generally accepted in the art because they comport with sport rules and with the positional philosophy. So in the old days many guys cross trained in judo. They learned the stuff the Luta Livre guys were doing and taught leg locks (albeit not to "outsiders"). In the 70's Rolls trained wrestling and started teaching those takedowns in BJJ in addition to the judo style takedowns that were previously emphasized. BJJ has never been a standardized art with moves all it's own, it has defined itself as more of a hodgepodge of effective techniques from other styles, with a ground-centric approach and a distinct positional emphasis. I have always believed that no technique "belongs" to any art. A double leg does not belong to wrestling, nor a triangle choke to BJJ, nor a collar choke to judo. What makes the styles different is a combination of sportive rule-sets and ground positioning.

    So to that end, I think BJJ does definitely have takedowns, it just depends entirely on where (and under whom) you train as to how much they are taught, as well as the preferences of the practioner regarding how much they want to learn. Because the sport rules allow for it, many BJJ practitioners will have minimal takedown skills, others will be pretty good. Lots of BJJ schools have dedicated takedown classes, but guard players probably won't attend them. So I think all in all BJJ does have takedowns, because they are all legal in competition and are taught in BJJ classes, although obviously the style has no takedowns that originated in BJJ. But it's still a ground-oriented grappling style, so even in places that teach a good deal of takedowns, you'll still see more of an emphasis on ground fighting than you will in, say, judo (can't pick wrestling because there's a lot of work on the mats involved, just radically different from BJJ).
     
  15. knoxpk

    knoxpk Black Belt

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    Thanks for the answers from both of you guys. I pretty much knew the answers but I did not want to put words in anyones mouth.

    Obviously I have been going round and round with a couple of posters on a different topic and without carrying it over to this thread and I was trying to get an idea if YOU each felt if BJJ in and of itself was a good Take down style. I took BJJ but b/c I am involved in the argument I am not a reliable source. You 2 are.

    I appreciate the input.

    Thanks!

    Sorry for the Hijack.

    But I will chime in on the actual topic. I trained BJJ for MMA and therefore we trained "some" takedowns but it was a highly specialized ground fighting training therefore there was much less take down work.
    Now if someone had a fight it would be alot more takedown intensive but really it was me or one of my brothers actually doing the teaching.
     
  16. YeahBee

    YeahBee Samdog Original Nine

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    what kind of school teaches overcommited throws? if it ends up being overcommited later in a match is a another thing, people are much better at defending at those levels so it ends up looking like that.



    An uprigth stance also gives YOU more attacking options

    If you train regularly you will learn all the throws (even the banned one) at least offensivly
     
  17. lechien

    lechien Gold Belt

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    Can you please elaborate on this?

    I always thought the the upright stance which is enforced in Judo was for another reason.
     
  18. knoxpk

    knoxpk Black Belt

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    Rambo I dont want to hijack the thread so I will make it brief. Maybe we can talk about in in PM mode after this. I understand the concept of what you are saying here but theory and practice are far different. I used the example of Jerry Bohlander on another thread who fought 2 of the best BJJ players of their day, Murillo (Carlson BB)and Fabio Gurgel (One instructor removed from Rolls). In both fights he dominated the wrestling part of the fight even though both of them were the absolute best rep for BJJ at the time if we are looking at accolades. Bohlander on the other hand was a "decent" HS wrestler, not a champion in his state but decent nonetheless. In fact many and I would dare say most BJJ players look elsewhere for takedown training even if it is under the same roof. Redaxe for example has a helluva school to train at but trains with a different coach for the actual takedown portion.

    So my contention is "having" takedowns and effectively applying them are 2 different things. For instance Hpakido "has" submissions but can you trust them?

    Anyway just thinking out loud here and I dont want to drag this thread to the abyss.
     
  19. SuperSuperRambo

    SuperSuperRambo Senior Moderator Senior Moderator

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    I'll reply via PM.
     
  20. juji gatame**

    juji gatame** Brown Belt

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    He's right. That was part of the reasoning behind the banning of leg attacks this year. Apparently at some high level competitions some judoka tended to stay in a bent over position, grab a leg or two, and it would turn into a shitty wrestling match (meaning that their wrestling technique wasn't good). There are way more options in an upright position than being bent over like foot sweeps, hip throws, trips.
     

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