T/F: Charles Oliveira is the GOAT MMA Submission Artist?

[Shotokan Dragon]

Last year, as most of you probably know, Do Bronx surpassed Royce as the UFC's all-time submission leader (11). He's continued to build on that, bringing the total up to 13 w/ his anaconda finish of David Teymur in February. Remarkably, all but 1 of his UFC wins have come via sub.

Here's the question: Is he the greatest submission artist we've seen in MMA (not just UFC)? Again: submission artist. There are obviously a long list of better positional grapplers across all major org's.

The record is just part of his case. His versatility is incredible: 7 RNC's, 4 anaconda's, 3 guillotine's, 2 armbars, 1 triangle and 1 never-before-seen improv leg lock (inverted calf slicer). He's subbed multiple black belts (Hatsu Hioki, Jim Miller and Myles Jury, just off the top of my head). He's also the only man to sub Darren Elkins.

What do you think?

 

[Yacob]

Oleynik has 45 submission wins

 

[joeyjoejoe]

No

 

[Hollywood Jack]

His offensive submissions are awesome. Defensively, he is pretty bad and was tapped by Miller, Lamas and Pettis. I guess if you're just counting ability to slap on submissions with no accounting for defense or positional grappling, then yeah, you can make the case for him.

 

[Shotokan Dragon]

Oleynik has 45 submission wins

Julio Cesar Neves started his career 30-0.

The ezekiel from bottom mount was mind-blowing, but all but like 10 of his submission wins have come against guys w/o wiki pages.

 

[TheMadHatter]

the only reason i would say no it because he has been submitted a few times too, in my book the best submission artist should also be able to avoid being submitted. he is a great fighter nonetheless.

 

[Hollywood Jack]

Demian Maia has 13 submissions in his career, including ten in the UFC against notable fighters. His defense and positional grappling is also excellent. Even if a guy like Aloe Vera is more exciting, I'd still give it to Maia or someone who's more technically sound like that.

 

[Sdeaf]

People don't seem to agree, but besides Royce, who would be our other options for this title?

 

[The Witcher]

No. GOAT submission mma fighter must have big scalps, not mid tier sub wins.

 

[Sdeaf]

Demian Maia has 13 submissions in his career, including ten in the UFC against notable fighters. His defense and positional grappling is also excellent. Even if a guy like Aloe Vera is more exciting, I'd still give it to Maia or someone who's more technically sound like that.

They have the same amount of fights, but Oliveira has five more submission wins.

I agree that Maia is the better overall grappler, but it seems Oliveira has the advantage when it comes to offensive grappling stats.

 

[GiSP]

If you want to talk about the UFC that’s one thing. But how do you make this thread about all of mma? Look at the first reply. What are you talking about?

 

[Blazmo]

They have the same amount of fights, but Oliveira has five more submission wins.

I agree that Maia is the better overall grappler, but it seems Oliveira has the advantage when it comes to offensive grappling stats.

Quality of competition was very different for both guys though.

 

[Sdeaf]

Maybe Big Nog? He has a lot of submission wins and some big names.

 

[Sdeaf]

Quality of competition was very different for both guys though.

True, but regarding finishes I don't think Maia has tapped many more quality names than Oliveira has.

 

[Shotokan Dragon]

If you want to talk about the UFC that’s one thing. But how do you make this thread about all of mma? Look at the first reply. What are you talking about?

Ok.

"Oleynik has 45 submission wins"

That means absolutely nothing to me. An incredibly high number of them came against regional opponents. Oliveira has never been an elite fighter, but being the all-time UFC submission leader is very noteworthy. His chokes are widely considered some of the best in present-day MMA, and he's shown to be dangerous in basically every ground position. His technical jitz won't ever be confused w/ Leandro Lo's, but, as far as pure submission skills go, he's remarkable.

 

[Shotokan Dragon]

Shinya Aoki is another to be considered.

 

[Shotokan Dragon]

True, but regarding finishes I don't think Maia has tapped many more quality names than Oliveira has.

He really hasn't. He also went thru a 3-year stretch where he didn't tap anybody. There are no "K-1 Aloe Vera" threads...

He's definitely a better grappler than Charles, but, at least in an MMA context, isn't the same submission threat.

 

[TriangleMonkey]

For sure, and I like the versatility of subs.

But goes to show how good Jim Millers game is when its on cause he caught him in a gangster ass knee-bar iirc, dat Miller Bro JJ

 

[Hollywood Jack]

I'll probably get some shit for this, but might as well throw Ronda Rousey's name out there. She was a high-level judo competitor whose game, unlike most modern judo players, was to tap you, despite the limited amount of time given in sport judo to tap your opponent. She makes her debut against a highly respected and experienced BJJ black belt in Ediane Gomes (most commonly seen beating a man in a gym smoker in Brazil) who had only lost to Amanda Nunes at the time, and 5 or her 6 wins were by submission. Ronda tapped her in only 25 seconds. Rousey also tapped high level opponents like Miesha Tate (twice), Cat Zingano, Sarah Kaufman and Liz Carmouche, 9 of her 12 wins were by submission and ALL were with her signature move, the armbar. All of her opponents knew what was coming and they still couldn't stop it. Yes, she was a pioneer and WMMA ain't the same game, especially back then, but it was still impressive. I know it looks bad in retrospect because of all the hype, but still worth mentioning, IMHO. I thought the way she tapped Cat was a work of art. Arguably the best submission in the history of the UFC, along with Mir subbing Nog or Hazelett tapping Burkman.

 

[Bend NvR Break]

Love his style. Submission over position.

Think he should be remembered as the most dangerous submission artist ever.