Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by Peteyandjia, Nov 19, 2020.
"You can't submit anyone from the body triangle"
And now anyone who has ever said this can please shut up.
(I appreciate it was a neck crank. But there's a claim that the body triangle is a pure stalling position from the bottom.)
That was masterful.
I'm a big Caldwell fan, but good on McKee. I don't think Caldwell took McKee's ground game seriously and assumed the fight was just going to be his if he took it there. Basically assumed he could just pound away from guard and ended essentially giving it away. It is funny though, Ken Shamrock outlines this exact submission in Inside the Lion's Den. Old school, new school, it gets you when you aren't looking for it.
To be fair to them, he didn't begin the submission from the body-triangle; it was that reverse-grapevine position that was part of what took away Caldwell's base. Once Caldwell tucked his head down, then McKee secured the hold and the body-triangle. But this sequence would never have happened if he was just on bottom with a body triangle the whole time.
Half stock in catch...
You definitely see a lot of variations of the reverse-nelson in a lot of catch material, including stuff going at least as far as back as the early 20th century.
Yeah there is a ton of it....
Off the top of my head I don't know if I've ever seen the stocks used as a submission quite like that...pretty cool.
I've seen people do similar stuff off of a hip-bump sweep; Anderson Silva demo'd something similar. It is cool, although as a fan of Darrion Caldwell since his amateur wrestling days, I wish it had never happened!
That was nasty
Kind of like the 100% sweep they do in 10th Planet but with a darce grip. You can really hurt the neck with that grip, mostly it's used for sweeping in BJJ.
Exactly this. The body triangle from bottom is a stalling position. Using it to finish a sub that's already locked in is the exception and doesn't change anything.
Did you actually watch the full fight? AJ Mckee used the body triangle before the finish to land elbows.
I was thinking in the context of grappling. In MMA there really isn't any such thing as a stalling position, because you can attempt strikes from just about anywhere. North-south is the only position I can think of where you can't throw an effective strike, but there are subs from there and it isn't a particularly effective position for pinning someone down.
Congrats you found an exception, but an example of a significantly larger guy using it to control his opponent's posture and stall for awhile before grabbing an arm (and having to switch to a grapevine/open guard to actually secure the sub) isn't particularly compelling to me.
I'm not saying that the position can never ever be used offensively. Only a sith speaks in absolutes, you know. It is overwhelmingly a defensive position and a stalling tactic, though.
As far as the submission, the body triangle definitely came into use for the finish. But the submission never would have come if he'd just hung out there. It was the reverse grape-vine that helped break Caldwell's posture and encourage him to place his head where he did.
I don't know what to tell you other than it's a fact that elite grapplers use the body triangle position from the bottom in MMA as a starting point for attacking. Beneil Dariush is a good example of this.
I don't know what to tell you other than that this is not an example of that, which seemed to be what you were suggesting before.
Caldwell is one of those guys who's a great wrestler, and who actually relies on his wrestling in a good way in his fights, but doesn't got the bjj to go along with it
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