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Supplement MIS-use and MIS-information 101:

Discussion in 'Dieting / Supplement Discussion' started by Sinister, Nov 8, 2005.

  1. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Okay, it's been a while since I've made a significant thread here and I been thinking about this for the past couple of weeks. I'm so sick of skepticism it's insane, and all of the "I hear this is bullshit wah wah wah" that goes on on a routine basis. So I thought I'd confront the issue head-on because something occurred to me when talking to the store managers I work with, one who studies pharmacology and the other who studies biology. We like to compare information as I'm now studying to become a Licensed Dietician, just to have the credibility.

    Most people read too many magazine articles and expect too many miracles. You're only given about a third of the information at-best on any existing supplement. This has largely to do with the level of regulation in the supplement industry and also the conflicting information circulating by some bullshit organizations that run things in our Country, such as the FDA and the AHA. These cross-eyed bastards couldn't interpret a study if their very lives depended on it. Let's face it, health is a PROFIT business in this Country, so if something isn't a big enough cash cow, or the cash doesn't flow directly to them, they will not endorse it and even directly attack it, like the targeting of creatine for the next ban.

    Now, keeping this in-mind the supplement organizations are having to go to desperate measures to sell their shit because people REALLY believe most things don't work. They're having to lie and confuse you. Especially being that a new supplement Company pops up about every other day. Literally 3 or 4 times per hour at my store per shift we get cals from vendors we don't associate with. It's madness. What kinds of information do they leave out or confuse? Well, let's get down to business as it applies to you the consumer. I'll go over some basic points you should always keep in-mind.

    1) The DOSAGE problem - Any time you read the dosage on a label you MUST remember that it's an FDA regulated piece of information still based on a 2000 calorie diet. Anyone in here consume EXACTLY 2000 calories per day for fact every single day? I didn't think so. So dosage is VARIABLE. I will say this though, most supplements give the wrong dosage for maximum effectiveness as it pertains to athletic performance. Examples:

    DHEA - Why is DHEA considered bullshit? First of all the information on it is SLIGHTLY off-kilter. DHEA IS a prohormone, however the problem is it's not specifically a testosterone pre-cursor. It can replace damn near ANY hormone in your body. So logic would dictate taking additional DHEA will replenish whatever hormone your body is deprived of, NOT NECESSARILY testosterone. That's why it won't work on you young bucks. But for perfomance purposes the actual dose of DHEA that would be desirable would be about 300mg per day. Now let's review, one tablet is usually 25mg. Get it? That would be 12 per day.

    Arginine - Even in Nitrous boosters no dose I've ever seen for maximum performance of Arginine says less than 3-5g per day. Now let's think about this. NO2, one of the best-known Nitrous boosters you need 8 pills per day to equate to 3000mg (or 3g) of Arginine AKG. That's the MINIMUM dosage. You'd need almost double that to get the most maximum effects. However, a lot of you guys are probably already starting to see how this may adversely affect you (like how excess arginine leads to cold sores) which is why you'd need a stack of Arginine/Lysine, both in the proper dosage, to balance it all out.

    Sucks don't it? But there you have it. So when you get your bottles of stuff and you slack-off or half-dose things, then come up here crying about how something didn't work for you...I have to be the bearer of bad news...YOU DID IT TO YOURSELF. The supplement works fine, you just got hoodwinked on how to take it. Keep in-mind when you read studies always look at how much the test subjects were taking of what and HOW they were taking it. Very few studies use the low ass doses most of you guys use on a routine basis for their conclusions. Hence why reputable studies show supplements like NO2 and Glutamine works, but so many of you say you've tried it and it did bupkus. There has to be an inconsistency somewhere, and any smart person is going to trust the results from an accredited University who is non-biased as opposed to someone using a supplement with a commercial-based pretense on how it's supposed to work.

    You can solve this problem with simple addition and subtraction, though. If you're consuming 3,500 calories per day because you're an athlete, then dosage based on a 2,000 calorie per day diet are going to be utterly useless to you. Especially considering supplements are supposed to work in conjunction with your eating and exercising plans. So, figure the percentage of increase of 1,500 calories and you have a good idea how much of what you need. Now this is for supplements that do not equate to food sources. Protein and greens drinks wouldn't necessarily follow this same idea.

    2) The CONSISTENCY problem - I hear this shit EVERY day. "Oh I take it but like I don't take it every day because I forget and stuff." Well, if you're going to be inconsistent then of course so are your results. Derr. This is why they invented cycling. I personally take a week off every 2 months or so to not have to deal with the monotony of eating like 14 fucking pills every day, and to allow my body time to function without. After that week when I get back on hard training and my supplements I actually find I'm stronger than before. Plus it gives my mind a break from having to remember to take shit every day. But if you're really THAT forgetful I have 3 words for you. GINKO FUCKING BILOBA.

    3) The VARIATION problem - Another common thing people do to themselves. They are constanty switching shit. "Oh I tried Hydroxycut, the Xenadrine, then TIGHT, then Lipo 6..." "How long have you been taking fat burners?" "Oh about 4 months." In 4 months time 4 different fat-burners. Idiocy. Reason? EACH ONE HAS A DIFFERENT FORMULA. Your body needs a little thing called TIME to get used to certain formulas and ingredients you're just introducing into your diet. You keep switching it and it will rebel and not respond to certain things. I've seen almost no 2 fat-burners with the same formula, and that goes for most other supplements. Not only that but it usually takes about a month for your body to maximize assimilation of new things being introduced into your daily intake. So if you begin a fat-burner (I'm using fat-burners only as an example) and use it for one month THEN switch it, you run the risk of totally confusing your body. You want to test things? Give it about 6 months before switching.

    4) The PLATEAU problem - You know how many returns we get because something "quit working" on someone? "Oh it worked really good at first but then I didn't feel anything." If I could hit people over this I would. YOU GOT BETTER. This is like those dolts who get sick, take cold medicine, feel better and then stop taking the cold medicine before the virus is gone and then bitch about how the cold medicine didn't cure shit. You're SUPPOSED TO KEEP TAKING IT until the problem is gone or the goal is reached, but if you "stop feeling" the effects of it perhaps that has something to do with your training routine and eating. Whenever I feel like I'm not getting stronger those are the first two things I adjust, don't fucking blame it on the pill.

    5) The ADVICE problem - My tattoo artist has this card. It says "10 ways to care for your new tattoo." Then it lists the ways. Rule #1 is - "NO ADVICE FROM FRIENDS. You trusted a professional to DO your tattoo, trust the professional to tell you how to care for it." I wish there were signs like this in Vitamin stores. Your friends neglect that you might not respond to the same things they do, that your genes might be different than theirs and thus you may encounter ailments they'll NEVER have to worry about. Also they neglect to understand that finding the right stack of supplements is a TRIAL AND ERROR process more times than not. So if you try something they SWEAR by and hate it, they don't know what to tell you. This is why I want to drop-kick every dink who comes into my store and gives me a little attitude when I ask if they have questions, then they get on a cell phone and ask their friend what kind of protein THEY recommend.

    Basically the point to this whole rant is for you to understand that this Industry at the moment is LOADED with mis-information. Question EVERYTHING, and if someone cannot give you a logical answer that halfway makes sense then you can pretty much conclude they're just reciting something they read and really don't know shit. The only reason I profess to know ANYTHING is not even because I study. Studying studies is kind of a dumb thing to do if you really think about it. It's fun and not much more, gives you a base understanding but no substance. I work in the field and see certain consistencies on a daily basis and have for the past couple of years. That's how I can say I know this or that, I get to see things with my own two eyes. And yes I consider placebo-effect for certain things, but when you give something 2 years (as I've known some of our clients that long) and you physically see the difference in the person since they started this or that, and they compete successfully, you can rest-assured it's not placebo-effect. If placebo-effect were THAT powerful, reputable organizations and scientists would not test REAL supplements versus placebos because it'd be non-conclusive. That's another one of those things you have to question.

    Do this now.

    That is all.
     
  2. TJS

    TJS Brown Belt

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    good stuff
     
  3. UbetterTAPout**

    UbetterTAPout** Banned Banned

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    Awesome post, man. It makes a lot of sense.
     
  4. Tommy Seoul

    Tommy Seoul Banned Banned

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    That's why the man has "King" in his name. Hail to the chief.
     
  5. Rjkd12

    Rjkd12 Certified Bastard

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    I'm still waiting for that significant thread..... :wink:

    Good stuff. Only thing I would consider carefully is the dosage part. Some things are not really based on caloric intake and body size. Make sure you know what you are increasing the dose of before you do it. I wouldn't recommend double the dose of steroids or even ephedra because you are twice as large or eat twice as much as a normal person. Also many vitamins are just there as insurance for a poor diet, so eating more doesn't mean you should overdo vitamins. If you do you are taking more in pill form and taking more by eating lots of food you are consuming way too many vitamins. Just learn a bit about what you are taking before you take a lot more than whats on the bottle.

    Otherwise its good stuff.

    I have one last thing to add. When taking supps or thinking about taking them pay more attention to whats in them than the name on the label and all the "benefits" with the little asterisks next to them. This way you can compare products of a similar nature and know more what they are doing to you. You can also see if one product is better than another because a few ingredients. This can help you save money by making your own also. I'd rather make my own ECA stack with cheap ingredients online than to pay 50 bucks for a bottle of zantrax 3 because it has dandelion and green tea extract plus the brand name.

    Learn to educate yourself than to just put things into your body blindly.
     
  6. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    That's a good point. I was mainly trying to say that most of the dosages of common supplements are actually too little to do what they need to do. But that of course doesn't apply to all vitamins. Common sense does however, so like you wouldn't need triple the amount of B vitamins if you have a higher caloric intake.
     
  7. BoxingFanNoMore

    BoxingFanNoMore Blue Belt

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    Yeah, I would also caution the recommended dosage part. One should also be concerned with toxicity of some substances at levels above the recommended dosage. Bottom line is you should know EXACTLY what you are taking at all times and how much, and why.
     
  8. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    To my knowledge most vitamins (just plain vitamins like A for example) you'd have to REALLY be trying hard to have the potential toxicity affect you. LikeI said, I'm mostly talking about things that people routinely use too little of to get the desired effect. I should have specified that more in the initial post but eh well, hindsight.

    However one good thing about increasing doses of things you feel are not affecting you is you'll quickly find out what you really can and can't take. Most of these things are either going to help or hinder as opposed to doing nothing whatsoever. I notice that most of the customers we have who return things because of some kind of reaction were actually adhering to better dosages and consistency than those who make returns because something did nothing.
     
  9. supersudo

    supersudo Purple Belt

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    another thing is that most herbs like dandelion (which increases bile flow & kidney function) and milk thistle (which improves liver function) should be cycled.. cuz herbs lose effectiveness if taken continuously for a long time as ur body builds a tolerance for them.. (just like illegal drugs :wink: ).. stuff that makes ur body do something should be cycled so they don't lose effectiveness..

    on the other hand, herbs like cayenne pepper, green tea, and ginger can be taken continuously bcuz they work independently from ur body and don't "make" ur body to do anything..
     
  10. Rjkd12

    Rjkd12 Certified Bastard

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    I do not know for this sure, so if anybody does I'd like to know. I would assume the body will grow a tolerance to anything at all you put into it that elicits a response. Anything that you ingest, be it natural, unnatural etc.. must have a receptor somewhere where it will illicit that response. Even if that product is not made at all in the body it must be analogus to something otherwise there would be no receptor for it. We do not have completely erroneous receptors anywhere.

    Now, I would agree the body builds up a tolerance to certain things faster than others. So while I am not doubting that you need to cycle certain things and others you can take indefinitely I don't think the reasons you gave are correct.
     
  11. supersudo

    supersudo Purple Belt

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    huh? the reasons u gave are the same reasons i gave.. (only in more technical terminology :wink: )

    but anyway.. yeh, that was what i was trying to say.. pardon my not-really-well-thought-out post :D
     
  12. i feel like crying after reading that.
     
  13. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    I feel like crying because you get a humongous Av.
     
  14. u like?


    great post btw. kinda made me feel dumb, but i feel smarter now.
     
  15. u know, even though, on most labels it says "based on a 2k diet" and ive seen that over and over, it never crossed my mind that i need to up my intake on those things. looks like ill be gettin about 8-10g creatine, and 500mg dhea. is that much dhea harmful?
     
  16. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    The creatine shouldn't necessarily harm you but Mick has some good advice on how to mix that with sugar properly. And I'd say try about 300mg of DHEA first.
     
  17. Brand Nizzle

    Brand Nizzle Guest

    You write SO friggin much
     
  18. alright, i just got the dhea about a week ago, i had been doing 300mg, so i guess ill stick with 300 for a few more weeks.

    the creatine is celltechm doesnt that have enoughmsugar and carbs in it already?
     
  19. whats up nizzle, theres a chain story about you in OT.
     
  20. Brand Nizzle

    Brand Nizzle Guest

    ARE YOU SERIOUS?!? Whats the thread name?!
     

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