Submissions and pro-wrestling

[masterfighter]

I dont watch alot of pro wrestling but I have noticed more and more submission moves being used. I heard about someone doing a triangle choke in the WWE, in a ps2 game i used to play chris benoit did an armbar from a mount position and when WWE was on a german sports channel last night (dont ask) i saw the undertaker do something that looked alot like a messed up gogoplata and choked his oponent out.
On Nuts tv (a low budget british tv channel I watch now and then) they have started showing "Bushido: the way of the warrior" which they always describe as some sort of mma. In reality its a prowrestling show (hard style?), UWFi. Almost every show features takada and some other names I recognise from mma. I believe the show was from the early 90s yet these guys were all using loads of different submissions although under different names. Ex. sleeper hold - rnc, cross lock - armbar etc.
So clearly realistic submissions have always been a part of pro-wrestling. It seems to me they were left out of american pro-wrestling (WWE) but are slowly returning as mma becomes more popular.
So, is it a good thing or a bad thing? Does it educate people on submissions or does make wrestling fans turn up at bjj classes and try to heel hook people? Do you think submissions in pro-wrestling are a desperate attempt to win fans back over who have switched to mma? Does it legitamise pro-wrestling? Or has it just been there all along?

 

[YeahBee]

jsut bad in general, stupid is waht it is

 

[Falconry]

As a pro wrestling fan, the general ignorance people have towards pro wrestling absolutely astounds me. Maybe it's not your fault if you just don't know any better because you've never watched any pro wrestling, but it still amazes me.

Submissions have been used in pro wrestling forever. Like, literally. As long as the Earth has existed and man has grappled with one another, they've been using submissions in some fashion to inflict pain on one another, and as long as man has been doing that as a sport; say, a few thousand years, that's how long submissions have been used in pro wrestling. Submissions have been used in pro wrestling before pro wrestling was pro wrestling. Suddenly, twenty years ago or thereabouts, professional MMA pops up and MMA fans start thinking the concept of 'submissions' belongs to their sport. It doesn't. I just can't understand this "pro wrestling is using real submissions now" mentality I keep reading about people having. Like, pro wrestling has always used submissions, where have you been the last few hundred years?

The reason that holds like kneebars and cross armbars and heel hooks were phased out of WWE (by it's own talent) is for wrestling psychology reasons; anyone who knows anything knows they're devestating holds which could finish a fight. It just doesn't make sense to have a guy sit in a jujigatame for two minutes while he tries to "feed off the energy of the fans" or whatever. The only real exception is the rear naked choke, which is like one of the only really effective submissions to still be used in North American pro wrestling but be portrayed as less effective. I don't know why that is. I hate it, personally. I mean if you watch a WWE match and somebody applies a sleeper hold, you're sitting there thinking "this guy has been in a rear naked choke for two minutes, he should be braindamaged by now." And that's why their talent prefers to use less obviously effective holds, usually, because it lessens how apparent it is that it's a work, which means suspension of disbelief, which means longer, more exciting matches for the audience.

But outside of the US, armbars, Kimuras, kneebars, etc are commonplace and have been used in pro wrestling for longer than Gracie Jiu Jitsu has even existed, being that catch wrestling was what pro wrestling was before pro wrestling was predetermined, therefore catch wrestling = "real" pro wrestling. In fact, Masahiko Kimura - who I'm sure you know played a very important role in the development of Gracie Jiu Jitsu - had trained in catch wrestling before he even got to Brazil, and had encorporated catch wrestling philosophies and techniques into his grappling. So what he taught in Brazil as part of the origin of GJJ, was in fact influenced by pro wrestling. The heel hook for example is a catch wrestling move. So in some ways, I don't see it as pro wrestling using "real submissions," I see BJJ and MMA competitors using pro wrestling submissions. BJJ is just a really evolved form of pro wrestling, basically.

So submissions in pro wrestling aren't a desperate attempt at anything. What's happening is... well, nothing. Pro wrestling never changed. MMA just got more popular so more people (ie; fans new to MMA) started observing the connection between shoot grappling and worked grappling. That connection being that, not surpringly, they're both exactly the same thing except one is real and one isn't. Rocket science, I know. But WWE fans aren't really educated on grappling by watching WWE; if you told them to apply a cross armbar they could probably apply a somewhat sloppy one, but wouldn't know the finer points of the technique. It certainly doesn't make pro wrestling fans turn up to BJJ classes and start heel hooking the bejesus out of people. Although, I do sometimes try sneak pro wrestling moves into my grappling. Texas cloverleaf in butterfly guard, cobra clutch against somebody defending a choke, etc. Even Eddie Bravo says he has his own cobra clutch. More people should just try have fun with that shit I think.

So yeah. I don't know what the issue is here. It's not a good or bad thing. It's not even a thing, as far as I can tell. And honestly I don't know why more people can't just be fans of pro wrestling and MMA. You get to see people get beat down in unusual ways and cool submission demos that you're probably never going to see in an actual grappling or MMA match. It's fun.

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[Czyivn]

Watching beefy shirtless men beat the shit out of each other: Manly.

Watching beefy shirtless men in speedos pretend to fight: Homoerotic.

 

[Falconry]

...Dude. Something you want to tell us? Like if I show you this ink blot, you're only going to see what you really want to see...

 

[YeahBee]

I jsut don't understand why you would like to watch faked sports?

Sure it can be great in movies but then it is about a story(only a select few sports work in movies aswell mainly am football and boxing)

 

[Masakatsu Funaki #1]

RINGS (91-99) > BattleArts

 

[Thrawn33]

The Undertaker (who is reportedly a huge MMA fan) has been using a gogoplata as his finisher lately.

 

[masterfighter]

To anyone who knows;
Whats the conection between Japanese jj and pro-wrestling? I remember being taught heelhook variations in an aikibujutsu class once upon a time (it was even in their kata).
And just to clarify, im not bashing pro-wrestling, i never really liked WWE, too much story, but this old school japanese stuff has me hooked.

 

[Thrawn33]

The Undertaker (who is reportedly a huge MMA fan) has been using a gogoplata as his finisher lately.

Woah, just realized the TS pointed this out in his first post. I need to quit trying to read while dead tired.

 

[Falconry]

To anyone who knows;
Whats the conection between Japanese jj and pro-wrestling? I remember being taught heelhook variations in an aikibujutsu class once upon a time (it was even in their kata).
And just to clarify, im not bashing pro-wrestling, i never really liked WWE, too much story, but this old school japanese stuff has me hooked.

I have no idea what the connection is. But the heel hook originated in catch wrestling. I guess it's just been borrowed by pretty much every other grappling art because it's useful.

 

[Kforcer]

I jsut don't understand why you would like to watch faked sports?

Sure it can be great in movies but then it is about a story(only a select few sports work in movies aswell mainly am football and boxing)

Good professional wrestling is beautiful to behold. Do you like watch MMA exhibition bouts like Rumina Sato vs. Hayato Sakurai, where both guys aren't really trying to beat each other but rather cooperating to express to the audience their technical ability, athleticism and creativity? If so, then you might like pro-wrestling if you opened your mind up.

Certain grappling techniques...and grappling flows...are aesthetically awesome, to me. It's the moves, the chains, the flow and the athleticism that I love about grappling as much as anything else. And all that is present in great pro-wrestling matches of a certain stripe.

 

[Kforcer]

I jsut don't understand why you would like to watch faked sports?

Sure it can be great in movies but then it is about a story(only a select few sports work in movies aswell mainly am football and boxing)

Good professional wrestling is beautiful to behold. Do you like watch MMA exhibition bouts like Rumina Sato vs. Hayato Sakurai, where both guys aren't really trying to beat each other but rather cooperating to express to the audience their technical ability, athleticism and creativity? If so, then you might like pro-wrestling if you opened your mind up.

Certain grappling techniques...and grappling flows...are aesthetically awesome, to me. It's the moves, the chains, the flow and the athleticism that I love about grappling as much as anything else. And all that is present in great pro-wrestling matches of a certain stripe.