Sub attempts = Advantage Points (Question)

[ZuZitsu**]

I don't mind this rule in tournies IF the points are given correctly!! But I have a problem with a few things Ive been seeing.

Here are two examples when I think they are given, or not given, incorrectly.

1. If someone throws their leg over your head to attempt an arm bar BUT they are unable to straighten your arm......IMO no advantage should be given! I could see if they were able to straighten your arm out and legitimently threaten a sub, but if you keep your arms in tight you are really in no danger. Ive seen WAY too many adavantages given just bc guys throw their legs over someones head.

2. If you attempt an omoplata and someone rolls out of it....isn't the roll out a defense to the sub? Bc otherwise you would get the sub! So IMO if someone rolls out of omoplata they should surrender an advantage point

The inconsistency in this rule annoys me.....especially when it effects the outcome of the match!

 

[platfox]

I don't like multiple toehold advantages. Maybe 1 or 2 is ok but when the ref realizes that there isn't going to be a finish at any moment in the match and they are being used just for advantage points, he should stop scoring them..


also...I agree with both your examples. Those shouldn't be advantages.

 

[Squints]

This weekend saw a match where one guy pretty much stalled the entire match and was given an advantage because he attempted a collar choke while in his opponent's guard. He won cause of the advantage. The other guy was pretty pissed

 

[HardEight]

It has to be a legitimate attempt.
The problem is that legitimacy is left up to the eyes of the judges. Different judges will score attempts differently.
I don't disagree with advantage points at all. It keeps things moving. If a competitor attempts a sub and gives up position at least the match keeps moving.
If the attempts are poor then you should be able to capitalize on your opponents sub par grappling skills anyway.
If you have to defend a submission then of course advantage points should be given. If you don't defend and it is legit, then you get subbed and match over.
It comes down to how one person is being more aggressive so it helps decide the winner in a 0-0 match.
If you don't like the way judges score then you could always not leave it in their hands.

 

[Mat Nemesis**]

i don't like advantages at all. the thought of getting some type of positive score for trying to do something but not succeeding is not so great.

but then again, i say sub only is the way to go.

 

[Coolcatsithe]

So now I guess we can change that saying...

"Almost only counts in horse shoes, hand grenades and Jiu Jitsu."

 

[redaxe]

i don't like advantages at all. the thought of getting some type of positive score for trying to do something but not succeeding is not so great.

but then again, i say sub only is the way to go.

If you don't like that your opponent is getting advantages, all you have to do is score some points. He could have 100 advantages and you could have 2 points and you would win.

It's just to break ties. Would you rather have tie matches?

 

[Mat Nemesis**]

If you don't like that your opponent is getting advantages, all you have to do is score some points. He could have 100 advantages and you could have 2 points and you would win.

It's just to break ties. Would you rather have tie matches?

thanks, i know how advantages work.

also, about ties-- I said sub only is the best which would mean i do not want to see ties.

but barring sub only, would like to see overtime until points are scored.

like I said, I do not like giving any type of positive score for almost doing something. Yeah, you almost passed his guard--but he stopped you from passing.
yeah, you almost got a toe hold--but he easily stopped it


So, perfect world = sub only, almost perfect world = until sub or someone wins by points,

Overtime in other sports have nothing to do with almost scoring during regulation.
That one team kicked a field goal and it only missed by 15 feet, hey they win!

Maybe they could work on some type of tie breaker.

people need to have a little patience and let a match go until a real winner is announced.

 

[HardEight]

thanks, i know how advantages work.

also, about ties-- I said sub only is the best which would mean i do not want to see ties.

but barring sub only, would like to see overtime until points are scored.

like I said, I do not like giving any type of positive score for almost doing something. Yeah, you almost passed his guard--but he stopped you from passing.
yeah, you almost got a toe hold--but he easily stopped it


So, perfect world = sub only, almost perfect world = until sub or someone wins by points,

Overtime in other sports have nothing to do with almost scoring during regulation.
That one team kicked a field goal and it only missed by 15 feet, hey they win!

Maybe they could work on some type of tie breaker.

people need to have a little patience and let a match go until a real winner is announced.

If we did that a NAGA tournament would last a week.

 

[redaxe]

thanks, i know how advantages work.

also, about ties-- I said sub only is the best which would mean i do not want to see ties.

but barring sub only, would like to see overtime until points are scored.

like I said, I do not like giving any type of positive score for almost doing something. Yeah, you almost passed his guard--but he stopped you from passing.
yeah, you almost got a toe hold--but he easily stopped it


So, perfect world = sub only, almost perfect world = until sub or someone wins by points,

Overtime in other sports have nothing to do with almost scoring during regulation.
That one team kicked a field goal and it only missed by 15 feet, hey they win!

Maybe they could work on some type of tie breaker.

people need to have a little patience and let a match go until a real winner is announced.

Actually at our local tournaments in my area they don't count advantages, they do overtime:

Overtime: The format of overtime will be: At the end of regulation there will be a 1 minute rest. Then the athletes will restart from standing and grapple for 1 minute. If at the end of that minute 1 athlete has scored enough points to determine the winner the match will be stopped. If, at the end of the minute, the score remains tied the athletes will continue to grapple until points are awarded. Once the athletes start grappling after their 1 minute rest they will not stop grappling until a winner has been decided.

So that is another way to do it, if the tournament organizers are organized enough and everything is running on schedule.

They only count advantages for the black belt matches, perhaps because black belt matches are already 10 minutes long and can tend to stalemate much longer than lower-level matches.

 

[Dynassty]

I don't mind this rule in tournies IF the points are given correctly!! But I have a problem with a few things Ive been seeing.

Here are two examples when I think they are given, or not given, incorrectly.

1. If someone throws their leg over your head to attempt an arm bar BUT they are unable to straighten your arm......IMO no advantage should be given! I could see if they were able to straighten your arm out and legitimently threaten a sub, but if you keep your arms in tight you are really in no danger. Ive seen WAY too many adavantages given just bc guys throw their legs over someones head.

2. If you attempt an omoplata and someone rolls out of it....isn't the roll out a defense to the sub? Bc otherwise you would get the sub! So IMO if someone rolls out of omoplata they should surrender an advantage point

The inconsistency in this rule annoys me.....especially when it effects the outcome of the match!

in regards to:

1. If they can break your posture and swing the leg over for an armbar attempt an advantage is given for sure for the attempt. If you have to cling to your arm to save it from being an armbar, you will surrender an advantage.

2. If the guy rolls out of an omaplata and you end up on top then its actually a sweep and you get 2 points if he steps over gets back into your guard then you just get an advantage

 

[Mat Nemesis**]

If we did that a NAGA tournament would last a week.

maybe just the finals, semifinals????

I have heard from lots of sub only that most matches are like 6 mins but they will have like one or 2 30 - 60 min ones.

I think in things like the mundials the final should be to the finish-- i mean that is the world championship.


but just my opinion.

 

[lechien]

thanks, i know how advantages work.


people need to have a little patience and let a match go until a real winner is announced.

But if you watch BJJ competition, you will notice that some people play the clock and the points system to perfection.

I have seen guy rolling hard for 7 minutes and are able to still to keep track of their scoreboard as well.

 

[MMA junkie]

Not a big fan of advantage points myself, would prefer at least a time based overtime and if anything, advantages can decide the winner after the allotted overtime period to be over.

I competed in a GrappleX that went to sudden death OT...

 

[knoxpk]

Not a big fan of advantage points myself, would prefer at least a time based overtime and if anything, advantages can decide the winner after the allotted overtime period to be over.

I competed in a GrappleX that went to sudden death OT...

I think advantages suck, either have stalling, -1 point for a guard pull and an OT. I don't think too many matches would go to OT especially if all the actual points you can score are 2 points or better. An advantage for a sub attempt is like swinging hard but missing the baseball or even making contact and it going foul, hitting the rim but not sinking the basket, throwing a jab that "almost" lands, shooting a takedown that "almost" works,having a football hitting your fingertips in the end zone but dropping it. I find it rather silly to award "advantages" for almost doing something.

 

[MMA junkie]

I think advantages suck, either have stalling, -1 point for a guard pull and an OT. I don't think too many matches would go to OT especially if all the actual points you can score are 2 points or better. An advantage for a sub attempt is like swinging hard but missing the baseball or even making contact and it going foul, hitting the rim but not sinking the basket, throwing a jab that "almost" lands, shooting a takedown that "almost" works,having a football hitting your fingertips in the end zone but dropping it. I find it rather silly to award "advantages" for almost doing something.

I guess you can equate it to a near fall of sorts in Wrestling. Almost pinning the guy but you don't. It does seem as if you can tighten up the advantage system at the very least though.

Another thing about sudden death is it makes the match much more exciting for both the spectators and the athletes involved in the match.

 

[akqjt]

But if you watch BJJ competition, you will notice that some people play the clock and the points system to perfection.

I have seen guy rolling hard for 7 minutes and are able to still to keep track of their scoreboard as well.

I thought the recently posted Ryan Hall competition video (http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f12/ryan-halls-absolute-match-ibjjf-chicago-1328861/) was pretty much a perfect example of this. No points scored in the first like, 9:50 or so of the match and then out of nowhere a back-take for four.

 

[redaxe]

I think advantages suck, either have stalling, -1 point for a guard pull and an OT. I don't think too many matches would go to OT especially if all the actual points you can score are 2 points or better. An advantage for a sub attempt is like swinging hard but missing the baseball or even making contact and it going foul, hitting the rim but not sinking the basket, throwing a jab that "almost" lands, shooting a takedown that "almost" works,having a football hitting your fingertips in the end zone but dropping it. I find it rather silly to award "advantages" for almost doing something.

Agreed about the -1 point for guard pull.

That would literally revolutionize the sport.

It would break a lot of ties and in many cases eliminate the need for advantages and OT because in almost all tie matches someone pulled guard.
It would prevent so much of all this stalling that these old school guys are crying about.
It would force a lot of the habitual guard pullers to work on their takedowns.
It would silence the BJJ haters who constantly use guard pulling as a reason why Judo is better.

Good guard players could still pull guard and get the sweep and be ahead by a point. But there would be no more pulling guard and stalling to win on advantages for "almost" sweeps or submissions.

That's the #1 thing I would change about the rules of BJJ if I were in charge.

(#2 would be to award points for side control instead of for a guard pass.)

 

[lechien]

Agreed about the -1 point for guard pull.

That would literally revolutionize the sport.

It would break a lot of ties and in many cases eliminate the need for advantages and OT because in almost all tie matches someone pulled guard.
It would prevent so much of all this stalling that these old school guys are crying about.
It would force a lot of the habitual guard pullers to work on their takedowns.
It would silence the BJJ haters who constantly use guard pulling as a reason why Judo is better.

Good guard players could still pull guard and get the sweep and be ahead by a point. But there would be no more pulling guard and stalling to win on advantages for "almost" sweeps or submissions.

That's the #1 thing I would change about the rules of BJJ if I were in charge.

(#2 would be to award points for side control instead of for a guard pass.)

Stalling always happen in every grappling sports and competition.

while you want to discourage pulling guard to make it more appealing for whatever reasons.

Just look what they did to Judo and Wrestling to stop stalling...

It is all messed up.

 

[MisterRay]

I notice the more I roll the more I throw up phantom submissions. Throwing my legs up for an armbar knowing it most likely wont succeed, I shouldn't be rewarded for that. Then again that is in class when it's a light roll, but if I knew I'd receive an advantage for it I'd probably do it a lot more in tournaments.

In terms of the -1 for guard pulling I'm on the fence with that one. I'm skinny and very tall and while I'm working on take downs and top game I get man handled very easily. Wrestlers will have the advantage if this were put into play, and guard is one of the most important aspects of jiu-jitsu. The way I see it, if someone is really good at take downs, there top game should be great also. So if someone pulls guard on them then there should be no problem passing, unless the guard player has greater technique. In that case then doesn't the better jiu jitsu player win?