Stupid Fencing Question...

fencing is weak... they need to bring the joust into the olympics..
 
hahaha.

the way you pose the question ts made me think of the jousting on jackass back in the day.

Jackass_734b7f_1485300.gif
 
Medieval combat was different from what sports and movies suggests.

Anyway I'd rather watch a sport based on the fighting style of the knights of the 1400-1500 era, close combat was pretty much wrestling between armored men.



 
So I was watching some Olympic fencing the other day. Now obviously if you handed these guys some rapiers they'd shred any idiot that challenged them to a sword fight. Buttt....

In close 70% of the fencing exchanges, there was a double stab. That is both opponents landed milliseconds apart. Then they look at the judges who decide who landed a millisecond sooner. Whatever the case though, in a real sword fight that would have equated to both guys being stabbed. Soooo, in real sword fights, were people double stabbing each other like all the time?
Right. For better or worse, for greater sport performance it becomes more and more specialized. Modern fencing has far less in common with classic fencing (both sport) than it used to. I mean, in two of the weapons you have limited target areas. Only in epee can you attack the entire body. Both have drifted more than a wee bit from the good ole' days of being able to tell who won by the guy who walked away. I supposed the judges found a way to guarantee themselves job security.

:)

But then there is the argument that many sports, which were originally practiced as preparation for combat, have drifted far from their original purpose.

But in terms of hand-eye coordination, you have to be a seriously well-connected motherfucker to do well at fencing. When the entire match can be over in a eye-blink, well, that, at least, is impressive.

I started épée sport fencing like 6 months ago and absolutely love it. It's really ALOT of fun.

Of course, épée is a sport and not a fight to the death using a weapon.

But that being said, if I had a real duel with a sidesword (what duels were done with as of the 18th century) in a month and had to train for it, I would train épée sport fencing exactly as it is.

The reason is very simple : épée doesn't have any weird rules (unlike foil and saber that need a judge to determine right of way) and you can hit any part of the body, kind of like in a duel.

The sport épée weighs approximately the same as historical sideswords and pretty much every attack, parry, escape or footwork could be applied to real fighting.

These épée-fencing olympians you see scoring double points in what looks like a super gay sport on TV could probably kill almost anyone in a real duel using a real sidesword and walk away without a scratch, because they are so damn fast that they will stick you 3 times before a normal person would even have a chance to attempt a double point.

So TL;DR : olympic fencing looks gay, but don't underestimate how much death these guys could deal with a real sidesword.
 
So I was watching some Olympic fencing the other day. Now obviously if you handed these guys some rapiers they'd shred any idiot that challenged them to a sword fight. Buttt....

In close 70% of the fencing exchanges, there was a double stab. That is both opponents landed milliseconds apart. Then they look at the judges who decide who landed a millisecond sooner. Whatever the case though, in a real sword fight that would have equated to both guys being stabbed. Soooo, in real sword fights, were people double stabbing each other like all the time?


Probably sometimes, but people didn't fight like that knowing it was for real.

Aldo Nadi, (a sport fencer back in the day) had a duel and describes the psychology of the situation here:

http://www.calpoly.edu/~dkgrant/fencing/nadi.htm

The first thing you forget "on the ground" is your fencing superiority. Your sensibilities increase tremendously. As soon as you are stripped to the waist, the chilly morning makes you think: "Even if I come out f this in good shape, it wouldn't be a bit funny to die of pneumonia."

A few yards away, you notice that your adversary talks leisurely with his seconds. You recall that he is also a racing expert, and it seems to you that he couldn't behave any differently were he waiting for the morning training gallops. Since the war, however, you have never arisen so early--for gallops, or any other reason; moreover, this is your first duel. You are not at ease. Particularly when you see a couple of doctors in white shirts silently laying out a hideous assortment of surgical instruments upon a little table. "They may be for me in a few seconds"--and this though is definitely unpleasant, even if the birds are singing happily in a beautiful sky.
 
I challenge any of you cans to a fencing match.
 
It works on a system of right of way. If you take the first aggressive step forward, you attain right of way, and if you both score simultaneously, you get the point.

However, when the blades cross this right of way changes hands. So if you aggressively come forward, stab, get parried, but then you both land on the same time; you land a riposte off the parry because you have right of way.
 
No expert but I think in a real sword fight people would be more defensive?

There were other schools, but italian one was probably the best and most influential

Italian name for fencing is "scherma" wich is linked to "schermo" (shield/protection) and "shermarsi" (the act of protect/defend themselves from an attack)

So yes, it born as defense first and attack next on priorities
Then stab the fucker in the heart before he can do shit work well as defense, but the very basic first rule of fencing back then was "don't die"

Modern sport simulate a funny nonsense -multiple- double death KO
 
When you're striking, you're not blocking. Double-stab is the norm, not an anomaly.
 
The modern weapons in fencing are so incredibly light that they move with a speed not possible with even an actual rapier, so back during the days of real weapons, double-touches (serious ones) were no where near as common.

Modern fencing has very little in common with actual sword fighting.

(my ex was a fencer for years, she was very good)

Here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Épée

Are you the one immortalized in @PolishHeadlock's signature?
 
The modern weapons in fencing are so incredibly light that they move with a speed not possible with even an actual rapier, so back during the days of real weapons, double-touches (serious ones) were no where near as common.

Modern fencing has very little in common with actual sword fighting.

(my ex was a fencer for years, she was very good)

Here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Épée

Obviously rapiers were heavier, say around 1,2-1,5 Kg.

Sideswords were much lighter, however, and some of them were even lighter than contemporary sport fencing épée...
 
Check out some HEMA(Historical European Martial Arts) videos to get a more accurate, in a dueling context anyway, representation of sword fighting. They base the techniques used off of historical sword fighting manuals.

There's also the movie The Duelists with Harvey Keitel. It is widely regarded as having the most realistic sword fights of any movie.



I was about to recommend his videos.

Although the idea behind HEMA is valid, the problem is that :
- many of them are a bunch of fat fucks who are very slow on their feet and out of shape
- there is a broken lineage between what they do today and what fencing masters were doing 300 years ago. Nobody knows how they were actually fighting, really, and HEMA dudes are trying to recreate a combat sport from renaissance and medieval treaties.

Again, current épée fencing techniques are designed to be the most efficient and fastest way to 1) strike someone with a sword and 2) not get touched by the opponent's sword.

One could argue that although the art has evolved into a sport, that the lineage is unbroken and that what we see today is actually the best of the best of the best.

An olympic judoka will beat an out of shape "deadly TMA" practitionner 9 times out of 10 under any ruleset, alone due to the fact that he has competed against the best for years and that he received the best training, refined through generations.

IMO the same goes with olympic épée fencing. The speed, footwork, athleticism, reflexes and coordination that one aquires in sport fencing trumps everything else.
 


The climactic sword fight between Zorro (Tyrone Power) and Captain Esteban Pasquale (Basil Rathbone) in the original black and white. Fun fact: both actors were already accomplished swordsmen outside of motion pictures. Basil Rathbone remarked after filming "Power was the most agile man with a sword I’ve ever faced before a camera. Tyrone could have fenced Errol Flynn into a cocked hat."
 
When you're striking, you're not blocking. Double-stab is the norm, not an anomaly.

I agree that the rules could be changed to penalise the double stab. For example that a point gained with no double stab counts for twice or three times.

The emphasis would be tilted more towards cautious fencing.

With current rules, when you are leading on points, you are encouraged to be reckless because double stabs award one point each.
 
There were other schools, but italian one was probably the best and most influential

Italian name for fencing is "scherma" wich is linked to "schermo" (shield/protection) and "shermarsi" (the act of protect/defend themselves from an attack)

So yes, it born as defense first and attack next on priorities
Then stab the fucker in the heart before he can do shit work well as defense, but the very basic first rule of fencing back then was "don't die"

Modern sport simulate a funny nonsense -multiple- double death KO

And this is the most I ever learned about fencing. Thanks
Sort of glad I was right :)
 
Probably sometimes, but people didn't fight like that knowing it was for real.

Aldo Nadi, (a sport fencer back in the day) had a duel and describes the psychology of the situation here:

http://www.calpoly.edu/~dkgrant/fencing/nadi.htm

Nadi family story is crazy

His big brother Nedo won 5 -FIVE- golds in the same Olympic (1920)
Same Olympic Aldo won 3 golds (as team member with him) and 1 silver... the silver was because his brother took that gold lol

Basically combined they returned home with 9 medals, 8 of wich golds
 
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