Striking in MMA will look more and more like this

Kid McCoy said:
That’s a well thought out response and appreciated.
If you’ve ever read my (non-trolling) posting here or elsewhere, you would be aware that my knowledge regarding everything MMA is more than just well in line and that as a contributing consultant for the NJSAC 13:46 Unified Rules of Conduct, the only thing ‘shocking’ might be anyone’s presumptions regarding my knowledge of the sport, or any aspect of it.
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I am going simply off what you posted. In fact, it seemed well below your usual standard.
I think what you’ve composed here is largely a reiteration of what I’ve said with the key departure being that while I lay some blame for the sloppy execution on aptitude and skill, you excuse it as a necessary byproduct of adjusting to the rules.

My contention is that boxing adjusted is still boxing, be the reason for the adjustment one born of rules change or simply a change in opponent style change, and that effective, well executed technique is measured here by the power, by the accuracy and by the defensively intelligent disbursement of those shots, regardless of the adjustments being made in deference to the conditions.
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No I totally agree with you. Sloppy boxing is sloppy boxing, not MMA boxing. I am saying two things. One, that MMA fighters can never be expected to have the same level of skill in boxing as boxers. If both fighters are doing two a days for a week. The boxer will spend 10 periods working on his hands while the mma fighter might spend 2 on his hands, 2 on wrestling, 2 on BJJ, 2 on MT and 2 on MMA scenario training. The boxer in this case would be spending 5 times as much time on developing is hands. Second, that the way boxing will be utilized in MMA will be different. The stance has to change a bit to deal with the takedown threat, the ranges change abit to deal with kicks, fighting in the clinch will be totally different.

Sloppy and inadequate form is just that under any rules, and it’s not necessary or productive to perform poorly just because you have to beware the kick and takedown.
Not, at least, to the extend you hope to imply.
In MMA, better boxing has the same effect as better grappling does, they both help you more the better they are, and that is true even as these are tailored for the application, and both retain the necessity of being delivered effectively.
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No arguement here. As I said a good jab is a good jab regardless of the venue.

Because they are the type of base athletes available at the price, MMA is very much a griller-centric sport, and I agree that the sport continues evolution, albeit at a slowed up pace, as converting grapplers to fighters leaves them all with miles to go in the quest to perfect each necessary facet allowed in the sport’s brand of hand to hand.
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I am not sure what you mean by a griller centric sport. The future IMO will not be converted grapplers as MMA fighters. IMO the future stars of the sport will have been training in boxing, wrestling, MT, BJJ (under the moniker) MMA their whole life. And will develop the skills as they go. There is also a very strong puch for Amateur MMA which will allow guys to develop the skills in fights prior to going pro, which is something that hasn't happened in the past. By the time a boxer gets a title shot he normally has about 20-30 wins (minimum) and could have 100-200 amateur bouts. If MMA wants to develop the professional on par with boxing, the need a robust amateur circuit.
 
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Tony Manifold said:
I am going simply off what you posted. In fact, it seemed well below your usual standard.


No I totally agree with you. Sloppy boxing is sloppy boxing, not MMA boxing. I am saying two things. One, that MMA fighters can never be expected to have the same level of skill in boxing as boxers. If both fighters are doing two a days for a week. The boxer will spend 10 periods working on his hands while the mma fighter might spend 2 on his hands, 2 on wrestling, 2 on BJJ, 2 on MT and 2 on MMA scenario training. The boxer in this case would be spending 5 times as much time on developing is hands. Second, that the way boxing will be utilized in MMA will be different. The stance has to change a bit to deal with the takedown threat, the ranges change abit to deal with kicks, fighting in the clinch will be totally different.


No arguement here. As I said a good jab is a good jab regardless of the venue.



I am not sure what you mean by a griller centric sport. The future IMO will not be converted grapplers as MMA fighters. IMO the future stars of the sport will have been training in boxing, wrestling, MT, BJJ (under the moniker) MMA their whole life. And will develop the skills as they go. There is also a very strong puch for Amateur MMA which will allow guys to develop the skills in fights prior to going pro, which is something that hasn't happened in the past. By the time a boxer gets a title shot he normally has about 20-30 wins (minimum) and could have 100-200 amateur bouts. If MMA wants to develop the professional on par with boxing, the need a robust amateur circuit.
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BIGthingsSON said:
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A thank you, a thank you

take-a-bow.gif
 
Tony Manifold said:
I am going simply off what you posted. In fact, it seemed well below your usual standard.


No I totally agree with you. Sloppy boxing is sloppy boxing, not MMA boxing. I am saying two things. One, that MMA fighters can never be expected to have the same level of skill in boxing as boxers. If both fighters are doing two a days for a week. The boxer will spend 10 periods working on his hands while the mma fighter might spend 2 on his hands, 2 on wrestling, 2 on BJJ, 2 on MT and 2 on MMA scenario training. The boxer in this case would be spending 5 times as much time on developing is hands. Second, that the way boxing will be utilized in MMA will be different. The stance has to change a bit to deal with the takedown threat, the ranges change abit to deal with kicks, fighting in the clinch will be totally different.


No arguement here. As I said a good jab is a good jab regardless of the venue.



I am not sure what you mean by a griller centric sport. The future IMO will not be converted grapplers as MMA fighters. IMO the future stars of the sport will have been training in boxing, wrestling, MT, BJJ (under the moniker) MMA their whole life. And will develop the skills as they go. There is also a very strong puch for Amateur MMA which will allow guys to develop the skills in fights prior to going pro, which is something that hasn't happened in the past. By the time a boxer gets a title shot he normally has about 20-30 wins (minimum) and could have 100-200 amateur bouts. If MMA wants to develop the professional on par with boxing, the need a robust amateur circuit.
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True.

Except, I believe that if they train hard enough they can become good boxers.
 
Your not suppose to bring a Boxer's stance to the game of MMA because extend the front leg to far and it will get kicked off.....Boxers and fans of Boxing need to understand that...


The only thing that translate from Boxing is Punching power, accuracy, hand speed, and footwork to a lesser extent.

I don't get why people think that think that anynon-boxer stance is a lack of skill.
 
Astrotrain said:
Your not suppose to bring a Boxer's stance to the game of MMA because extend the front leg to far and it will get kicked off.....Boxers and fans of Boxing need to understand that...


The only thing that translate from Boxing is Punching power, accuracy, hand speed, and footwork to a lesser extent.

I don't get why people think that think that anynon-boxer stance is a lack of skill.
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I don't think the stance is at issue here. It is sloppy punching. Chris Lytle is 13-1-1 as a pro boxer and he doesn't show tremendous technique in the ring (interestingly enough his last fight, a win, was against Omar Pittman has fought some pretty decent guys like Jean Pascal). Chuck Liddell "the most feared striker in MMA" for awhile, throws huge looping punches.

A proper jab is a proper jab, a proper right cross is a proper right cross. There is some variation but in general terms there is a right way and a wrong way to throw them. Not all boxers have great technique, Naseem Hameed comes instantly to mind but in general top boxers have better striking technique than top MMA fighters. There isn't much to argue about there.

The argument can be about why (ie. training so many different aspects) or will they ever bring their level of striking up closer to par with top boxers. But the state of MMA striking right now is more on the level of club boxers that top professionals. I personally think we are seeing the signs that MMA fighters are realizing their boxing is sub par and taking steps to right that ship. GSP working with the grant brothers and Freddy roach is a high profile example. I can see the importance of boxing fundamentals at my own gym and can extrapolate that into what I think striking in MMA will be like in 5 years, seeing an improvement. As it stands right now, even at the elite level, stand up coaches seem to be MT or Kickboxing guys. If you want to gain the skills of the top boxers you need to get together with top boxing coaches. I think that is happening now.
 
Go watch Cung Le fight and tell me if he is "sloppy in his technique" because hes not a boxer....
 
I'd favor Cung Le in a stand up fight over any top Boxer at his weight of 170-180.

Sanshou & TD mixed together.....
 
Tony Manifold said:
I agree with you here

We still haven't shown that the average pro fighter makes any more in boxing than in MMA. The top end is higher but from what littel data I have been able to find. the average is probably on par


Here you show a shocking lack of understanding of striking in MMA. Striking in MMA is different than in boxing. Not as different as say boxing and point karate but different. The stance is different, the situations are different and the ranges are different. Superman punches have a place in MMA but are useless in boxing due to the lack of the kick threat, etc. Dirty boxing isn't bad boxing. It is a very specific strategy which involves hitting in the clinch, rabbit punching and using a lot of the inside strategies that are not allowed in boxing.

With all that said, a jab is a jab, a cross is a cross and a hook is a hook. It is how it is used that are different not the techniques themselves. Chris leben doesn't swing wildly because he is an MMA fighter and has to punch differently, he is just a wild swinger. Boxing has perfected the punch because they are a alive combat sport where punching is the only weapon. It is only natural that boxing would be the most advanced in that area, just as wrestling and judo are the expert takedown systems. The MMA fighter has to take the tools from the specialized systems and adapt them to generalized system.

Let me draw an analogy. The best pistol shooters in the world are IPSC shooters because they do nothing but shoot pistols all day, every day. For a soldier pistol shooting is a secondary skill. With few exceptions, soldiers will not be able to shoot at the level of an IPSC grandmaster. He has to spend time with a rifle, GMPG, M72, Grenades, tactics, and a hundred other skills. That doesn't mean that he should rely on old west style one handed shooting. He can still mechanics used by the IPSC shooters to improve his shooting. Maybe he won't be able to knock down 5 lateral plates in a second and a half, on the run. But he can definately shoot better than if he shot from the hip.

The MMA fighter is much the same. With very few exceptions, a MMA fighter will not be able to throw 7 punch combos while slipping counters. He can't spend the time getting to that level. But he can use a basic 1-2 or 1-2-3 combo to greater effect than if he just wings his punches. The best fighters now are doing that. GSP trains with the Grant brothers, has trained with Freddie roach and sparred with Lucien Bute, for example. The guys at ATT have Howard Davies (US Gold Medalist) teaching them. The game is changing. People realize how important proper boxing fundementals are to MMA. The next generation will have better boxing.

I have posted this before but this 16 year old kid at my gym has just been signed by the MFC (to fight when he turns 18). This kind of striking is the future on MMA.

Alexi Mayweather on Vimeo
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I don't mean to bust your balloon, but that mitt work was actually really simple and I teach the EXACT same drill to my kids that are brand new and they have it down in a week. All he is doing is countering 3 basic counters while pitter patting. He counters the body hooks on either side with uppercuts and goes under the left hook to counter with the right back at the guy. Seriously, anyone can do mitts like thiis in about a week and a half, and this is absolutely NOTHING like what Mayweather is doing complexity wise. Have a look again, there are only 3 moves here.
 
anubismcdeath said:
I don't mean to bust your balloon, but that mitt work was actually really simple and I teach the EXACT same drill to my kids that are brand new and they have it down in a week. All he is doing is countering 3 basic counters while pitter patting. He counters the body hooks on either side with uppercuts and goes under the left hook to counter with the right back at the guy. Seriously, anyone can do mitts like thiis in about a week and a half, and this is absolutely NOTHING like what Mayweather is doing complexity wise. Have a look again, there are only 3 moves here.
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If you say so, it is a Roger Mayweather staple. Floyd is obviously better and will add more elments but he is FLoyd Mayweather. I also watch this kid all the time and he is good. That is just a video that was put up to show to Mark Pavlich, President of the MFC and he does it pretty smooth while talking and looking at the camera. If this is what you teach in the first week you must have some pretty amazing kids. More trainers I have met start with a Jab and a cross.

The point is less that he is amazing or anything like that it is that you have kids that have trained MMA since they were real young and are taking their boxing training seriously.
 
Tony Manifold said:
If you say so, it is a Roger Mayweather staple. Floyd is obviously better and will add more elments but he is FLoyd Mayweather. I also watch this kid all the time and he is good. That is just a video that was put up to show to Mark Pavlich, President of the MFC and he does it pretty smooth while talking and looking at the camera. If this is what you teach in the first week you must have some pretty amazing kids. More trainers I have met start with a Jab and a cross.

The point is less that he is amazing or anything like that it is that you have kids that have trained MMA since they were real young and are taking their boxing training seriously.
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Many of my old training partners cut their teeth in Pavlichs Shows. I'm not knocking your friend, as he probably has much more than that for skills, but yeah we warm up with this drill in our striking classes. I have a 15 year old that just lays the law down with this. Once you have the theory of this it is really not that hard. The theory is as follows. When you hand is away from your body, your opponent will try and counter, at which point you bring in your elbow and drop your level to block and respond with the most efficient punch counter in the uppercut on the same side, ditto for the other side. The left hook upstairs, you drop under and come out with the cross as again it is a beauty counter as your opponents arm is away from him. the rest is pitty patter. We also warm up with a 12 combos drill that I scooped from another poster on a diff forum who trains boxing in an elite gym.

And thanks man, I have been saying to people for years that boxing was the "missing art" in mma, and that in the future we would all have to master it as well as the mt, wrestling, and subs. As for the jab and cross, haha yeah I have to teach that to every new guy, but as a warm up, I can't drag all my other guys back to square one every time a new guy comes in. Lol one of my 12 years olds was actually teaching this today to a new kid he was doing mits with and he has the understanding down totally but he isn't that good yet. One thing we do do differently is we mix up the pitter patter count so that the guy who is hitting the mits never knows how many punches are going to be coming at him. so say sometimes it 3 , sometimes its 5. Then guys don't get in the habit of moving before the actual punch is thrown.
 
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Lastly, if that clip proves anything, its that Alexi Mayweather is a huge loser. Get a life.
 
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anubismcdeath said:
Many of my old training partners cut their teeth in Pavlichs Shows. I'm not knocking your friend, as he probably has much more than that for skills, but yeah we warm up with this drill in our striking classes. I have a 15 year old that just lays the law down with this. Once you have the theory of this it is really not that hard. The theory is as follows. When you hand is away from your body, your opponent will try and counter, at which point you bring in your elbow and drop your level to block and respond with the most efficient punch counter in the uppercut on the same side, ditto for the other side. The left hook upstairs, you drop under and come out with the cross as again it is a beauty counter as your opponents arm is away from him. the rest is pitty patter. We also warm up with a 12 combos drill that I scooped from another poster on a diff forum who trains boxing in an elite gym.

And thanks man, I have been saying to people for years that boxing was the "missing art" in mma, and that in the future we would all have to master it as well as the mt, wrestling, and subs. As for the jab and cross, haha yeah I have to teach that to every new guy, but as a warm up, I can't drag all my other guys back to square one every time a new guy comes in. Lol one of my 12 years olds was actually teaching this today to a new kid he was doing mits with and he has the understanding down totally but he isn't that good yet. One thing we do do differently is we mix up the pitter patter count so that the guy who is hitting the mits never knows how many punches are going to be coming at him. so say sometimes it 3 , sometimes its 5. Then guys don't get in the habit of moving before the actual punch is thrown.
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i'd love to try this on the pads, does it translate into sparring? what other advantages do you think it has?

my boxing coach isn't a fan at all he thinks it's only for conditioning

Roger Mayweather Working the Mitts is a good 5 part video on youtube[/QUOTE]
 
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