Strict Overhead Press - weak off the shoulders
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D
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Read some of EZAs other stuff and I think you may change your mind Cap'n. EZA has contributed a lot of stuff most of us(all of us?) didnt know about. The OHP thing is a real downer, but the rest of his stuff is golden.
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I really enjoyed his information he posted in the conditioning thread.
I can respect him for the most part, I just don't have to like him very much.
EZA
Joel Jamieson
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I never would have guessed the overhead press was everybody's favorite exercise these days. I actually used to overhead press all the time myself years ago but my shoulders are trashed from years of football so going heavy overhead with a barbell kills them anymore. If you use dumbbells and adduct the shoulders they are much easier on the joint.
As far as "lift to get strong not to replicate movement patterns" that's an interesting statement but a narrow minded view. Strength is an application of force in a given direction, by its very definition it is movement pattern specific. How exactly do you define strength if it's not directional? Should all athletes regardless of sport use all the same lifts just to get strong?
For performance purposes you lift to raise the functional capacity of specific motor abilities required for the performance of a sport and to invoke general adaptation through the mechanics of GAS to develop biological power, not just to "get strong."
As far as exercise selection for resistance training, the following considerations from Verkhoshansky are particularly relevent to this discussion:
1. The beginning position of the movement and the point where maximal effort is produced should be carefully chosen.
2. Resistance exercises should be chosen according to two criteria from the competitive sport: first, the form of movement (muscle groups involved, direction and amplitude of movement, and second, the regiment of muscular work (velocity of muscular work produced and energy systems involved)
3. Resistance exercises should intensify the regime of muscular work in consideration of speed of contraction and duration of work for the competitive event.
For general health and wellness you lift to improve how the body adapts to stress by developing the systems of GAS and by improving autonomic regulation. Strength is only a small component of this.
I would suggest getting a copy of Supertraining and reading the entire section on the principles of specificity. Then get a copy of The Stress of Life by Selye and read the entire thing. And by all means don't like me very much, I don't mind either, but if you're going to present your views how about backing up your statements with some kind of evidence or justification.
As far as "lift to get strong not to replicate movement patterns" that's an interesting statement but a narrow minded view. Strength is an application of force in a given direction, by its very definition it is movement pattern specific. How exactly do you define strength if it's not directional? Should all athletes regardless of sport use all the same lifts just to get strong?
For performance purposes you lift to raise the functional capacity of specific motor abilities required for the performance of a sport and to invoke general adaptation through the mechanics of GAS to develop biological power, not just to "get strong."
As far as exercise selection for resistance training, the following considerations from Verkhoshansky are particularly relevent to this discussion:
1. The beginning position of the movement and the point where maximal effort is produced should be carefully chosen.
2. Resistance exercises should be chosen according to two criteria from the competitive sport: first, the form of movement (muscle groups involved, direction and amplitude of movement, and second, the regiment of muscular work (velocity of muscular work produced and energy systems involved)
3. Resistance exercises should intensify the regime of muscular work in consideration of speed of contraction and duration of work for the competitive event.
For general health and wellness you lift to improve how the body adapts to stress by developing the systems of GAS and by improving autonomic regulation. Strength is only a small component of this.
I would suggest getting a copy of Supertraining and reading the entire section on the principles of specificity. Then get a copy of The Stress of Life by Selye and read the entire thing. And by all means don't like me very much, I don't mind either, but if you're going to present your views how about backing up your statements with some kind of evidence or justification.
LOL!
where did all the other cops come from? there was just the 2 chicks and the guy then when the shit went down the whole precinct came flying in
takeahnase
watching the swarm
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Just a brief note.
This comment is useless, seeing that the same can be said for EVERY exercise in the book. I'm pretty sure that there are many athletes that never deadlift. I'm confident that there are some athletes that never bench. Some athletes may never front squat and others never power clean.
People here getting personal does not mean that you have to be aggressive too. In addition, Cap'n's real name is Anal, so please understand that he wakes up feeling pretty grumpy every day.
Quite a few posters here compete in MMA, grappling, thai boxing, powerlifting, olympic lifting, highland games or strongman. However, many of those competing in MMA and other fight sports are still at a level at which many of the concepts you throw around may not yet be applicable in their entirety. You are probably aware of the fact that most pro-fighters have better things to do than spend all day on an internet message board. While your comments are usually very well thought out, you are making one basic mistake in my opinion. You spend a lot of time talking about specificity, but you rarely address the training status (training age and background) of the hypothetical trainee you are addressing.
Coming on here an saying "the OHP is bad for your shoulder and is not really applicable to MMA" is not much different from other people saying "benching irritates the rotator cuff and lying down is not sport specific outside the realm of hookers", "deadlifts hurt your back and make you slow" or "box squats compress the spine and what athlete sits down during a match?". The thread starter asked a question about the OHP on a strength forum (albeit on an MMA board) that clearly indicates that he is interested in his performance in the overhead press. As such, a comment that can be read as "OHP is dangerous and useless" will not come across as very relevant.
Keep up the good posting.
This comment is useless, seeing that the same can be said for EVERY exercise in the book. I'm pretty sure that there are many athletes that never deadlift. I'm confident that there are some athletes that never bench. Some athletes may never front squat and others never power clean.
People here getting personal does not mean that you have to be aggressive too. In addition, Cap'n's real name is Anal, so please understand that he wakes up feeling pretty grumpy every day.
Quite a few posters here compete in MMA, grappling, thai boxing, powerlifting, olympic lifting, highland games or strongman. However, many of those competing in MMA and other fight sports are still at a level at which many of the concepts you throw around may not yet be applicable in their entirety. You are probably aware of the fact that most pro-fighters have better things to do than spend all day on an internet message board. While your comments are usually very well thought out, you are making one basic mistake in my opinion. You spend a lot of time talking about specificity, but you rarely address the training status (training age and background) of the hypothetical trainee you are addressing.
Coming on here an saying "the OHP is bad for your shoulder and is not really applicable to MMA" is not much different from other people saying "benching irritates the rotator cuff and lying down is not sport specific outside the realm of hookers", "deadlifts hurt your back and make you slow" or "box squats compress the spine and what athlete sits down during a match?". The thread starter asked a question about the OHP on a strength forum (albeit on an MMA board) that clearly indicates that he is interested in his performance in the overhead press. As such, a comment that can be read as "OHP is dangerous and useless" will not come across as very relevant.
Keep up the good posting.
EZA
Joel Jamieson
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The comment I made about most people on here not training in MMA so my view on OHP wasn't applicable was not meant to be an insult to anyone. I was simply trying to say that I was only talking about the exercise within the context of people who train MMA or football or other contact sports so if you aren't one of those people then my comment about not training it much didn't apply. There were no personal attacks intended, I've just been surprised that it seems like most people posting on this MMA training discussion board seem to primarily have goals other than improving their performance in MMA so I will keep my future posts with this in mind. The comment was not intended as an insult to anyone on this board. I've never said the OHP is dangerous and useless, it was merely that if you're in MMA or a contact sport you probably don't want to be doing a large volume of a heavy load of that exercise. My original point was very purposefully very narrow but it's been very broadly interprested and extrapolated through this discussion.
My comment about many athletes not overhead pressing, however, is actually not useless at all and makes a very relevent point about specificy and the transfer of training. Transfer is a two way street and this means that if an exercise has a high level of transfer into a given movement pattern or execution of a skill then the reverse is also true. An athlete at a very high level will always be much better and much stronger in that exercise, even if they rarely do it, than an athlete of a very low level or a non-athlete altogether. This is one of the fundamental principles of transfer that is often overlooked.
If you were to take all the top MMA athletes today would they all be any stronger or more powerful in the overhead press than an athlete of a very low level or someone who only lifts recreationally? That is a very important question to answer when it comes to exercise selection and programming in general. No I'm definitely not saying that every exercise needs to be totally specific or mimic the skills of the sport, but I am saying that there is a reason every lineman in the NFL will have a much higher squat than the average high school lineman and higher than the majority of college lineman and it's because the squat is a specific lift to the sport. Also, when it comes to max strength and overhead pressing it does not take a rocket scientist after watching Shogun beat Randleman and Fedor destroy Coleman awhile back to realize that max strength is not the most important motor ability that needs to be trained to be successful in MMA. There is a time and place for general training and for specific training, but the point I brought up was important for the discussion.
And yes I will agree I probably misjudged the average background and training experience of people on this board. I spend most of my time working with professional athletes and talking to coaches who do nothing but train professional athletes so that's just the audience I'm used to dealing with but you make a good point and I will take that into consideration in future posts.
My comment about many athletes not overhead pressing, however, is actually not useless at all and makes a very relevent point about specificy and the transfer of training. Transfer is a two way street and this means that if an exercise has a high level of transfer into a given movement pattern or execution of a skill then the reverse is also true. An athlete at a very high level will always be much better and much stronger in that exercise, even if they rarely do it, than an athlete of a very low level or a non-athlete altogether. This is one of the fundamental principles of transfer that is often overlooked.
If you were to take all the top MMA athletes today would they all be any stronger or more powerful in the overhead press than an athlete of a very low level or someone who only lifts recreationally? That is a very important question to answer when it comes to exercise selection and programming in general. No I'm definitely not saying that every exercise needs to be totally specific or mimic the skills of the sport, but I am saying that there is a reason every lineman in the NFL will have a much higher squat than the average high school lineman and higher than the majority of college lineman and it's because the squat is a specific lift to the sport. Also, when it comes to max strength and overhead pressing it does not take a rocket scientist after watching Shogun beat Randleman and Fedor destroy Coleman awhile back to realize that max strength is not the most important motor ability that needs to be trained to be successful in MMA. There is a time and place for general training and for specific training, but the point I brought up was important for the discussion.
And yes I will agree I probably misjudged the average background and training experience of people on this board. I spend most of my time working with professional athletes and talking to coaches who do nothing but train professional athletes so that's just the audience I'm used to dealing with but you make a good point and I will take that into consideration in future posts.
Bainbridge
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There are credible coaches and orthopedic surgeons on both sides of the debate. At the end of the day, you have to do your own research/experiment and make a decision that works for you or the athlete you're training.
For what it's worth, here's an article that discusses the fear of overhead pressing .
http://www.crossfit.com/journal/library/67_08_Overhead_Lifting.pdf
For what it's worth, here's an article that discusses the fear of overhead pressing .
http://www.crossfit.com/journal/library/67_08_Overhead_Lifting.pdf
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Don't defend or make excuses for what I said. I meant every word.
D
Deleted member 56619
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I have never read supertraining but from my understanding, i wouldnt understand it. I think you might have already said you planned it, but an article on all this stuff would be helpfull to a lot of us. I thought that verticle jump is the best indicator of an athletes explosiveness. I thought that olympic lifts were the best way to improve my explosiveness because olympic lifters have such high verts due to their training. From my understanding of your take on this, this is not always true because of the different direction of the movements? And that olympic lifts make you jump higher, but that does not really mean i am more explosive moving forward? I would love to read an articel that explains all of this stuff to my dumbass.
G
Gavin LeFever
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EZA
Joel Jamieson
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The power developed using the olympic lifts is vertical so your explosiveness will improve from a vertical power development standpoint the most. That's not to say there is no carryover or transfer into other directions because there is similiarity in movement patterns between horizontal and vertical acceleration, but it does mean you will get the most benefit in your vertical jumping ability from olympic lifts.
Horizonal power requires movement patterns where the power generated is horizontal such as explosive bounds and jumps. Basically if you want to improve your vertical jump you do olympic lifts and vertical plyometrics, if you want to improve your speed and horizontal power you do explosive movements and plyometrics that are horizontal.
There was a lot of research done on this by the Russians. High jumpers and such primarily used olympic lifts and the shock method, long jumpers and runners used explosive bounds and horizontal plyos.
The lower level the athlete the less important this is but in higher level athletes it is crucial to improving performance.
Horizonal power requires movement patterns where the power generated is horizontal such as explosive bounds and jumps. Basically if you want to improve your vertical jump you do olympic lifts and vertical plyometrics, if you want to improve your speed and horizontal power you do explosive movements and plyometrics that are horizontal.
There was a lot of research done on this by the Russians. High jumpers and such primarily used olympic lifts and the shock method, long jumpers and runners used explosive bounds and horizontal plyos.
The lower level the athlete the less important this is but in higher level athletes it is crucial to improving performance.
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yeah, cap'n is a lower level athlete. i get it now.
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I hope you get the clap
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