Strict Overhead Press - weak off the shoulders

[Krossinc]

No I'm sure since I haven't overhead pressed heavy in years it's probably down, but obviously there isn't a huge transfer to other upper body movement patterns because my other lifts are still up. My point is overhead pressing in the long run isn't a great lift and it's unnecessary any doesn't transfer well anyway. The shoulder joint has more range of motion than any other joint in the body and there will always be an unavoidable risk of instability with increasing mobility. That is why there are so many shoulder injuries in general, especially in contact sports. If you want to have healthy shoulders in the long run, they need to be trained properly.

So your solution is to not train it? One of the larger problems associated with shoulders comes from individuals who train bench press but fail to adequately train the OHS. You'll do more damage to your rotator cuff by not doing the press than doing it. I'm firmly under the belief that for every bench workout, there should be a press that week to match it.

You can't simply say 'Oh, there are people who got shoulder injuries, must have been from overhead pressing, so let's ignore our shoulders.' Again, it sounds like the excuses of a quarter-squatter and half-bencher. There are many exercises out there that can cause serious problems to the body if done incorrectly.

It does transfer. A bench does not transfer nearly as much to most modern sports. How often is your body going to be supported in the back for you to bear down and press weight at a perfect 90 degree angle? Generally, force is applied at above a 90 degree angle and with no support. Am I saying bench is not important? Absolutely not. They're both two amazing exercises that should be apart of any athlete's routine. Notice I said BOTH, not one.

Now, are the shoulders fragile? Yes. They're designed for large amounts of flexibility. That's why we need to compensate for that. Shoulders should have extensive warm-ups and should be performed with careful attention to form.

There's reasons I think it's very valuable to MMA.

It teaches the entire body to work as a whole. We're talking Abs, obliques, arms, shoulders, lower body. The force it generates STARTS from the ground and translates in to the very far reaches of the upper body. That's what makes it so important to MMA. Power is generated from the ground and released in to the shoulders. This is where all things in MMA originate and where a good portion end. The exercise develops strength, coordination, and if done properly INJURY PREVENTION.

Now, I know you're a well-educated fella, but I completely disagree with you here and think the OHP is one of the most valued exercises that people shy away from. As I said before I believe it is the most important upper-body exercise related to sports. That's something that Rippetoe has said on numerous occassions also.

 

[XTrainer]

Just go to the CrossFit site and look in the exercise videos/demos. There's about a half-dozen Rippetoe press vids.

 

[XTrainer]

(That was for red demon)

 

[mettalhead]

Bort what it sounds like to me is this guy is afraid of anything manly, and doesn't want to be cockdesiel. Put weight over you head pussy.

 

[flak]

Please, much appreciated.

Here are two of the three I've seen. The third one didn't cover anything new, so I didn't dig it up. As you probably noticed, XTrainer said there's more -- I'll check into that.


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[EZA]

Kross,

With all due respect, if you believe the overhead press is the most important upper body exercise related to sports then you must have a completely different understanding of athletic development and philosophy than myself. Risk to benefit issues aside, I've seen hundreds of programs of collegiate and top level olympic caliber athletes, many written by some of the best eastern european coaches in the world, and few if any ever use the overhead press to any extent whatsoever. Outside of Olympic Weightlifting, it's rarely been used at all except by low level athletes.

Just because it invovles a lot of muscle does not make it specific to anything in particular, you are completely neglecting the direction the application of force is applied, which is vertical and non-specific to just about any sports specific movement pattern. The rest of the body is isometrically contracted to stabilize, which is certainly important, but there are several exercise that accomplish this same thing and many which accomplish it better. The vertical force development is the same principle as the olympic lifts, which have a great application in vertical jumping sports and limited application in just about everything else for higher level athletes.

Also, just because you are laying down on a bunch does not mean it does not transfer or transfers less than the overhead press, the position you're in is secondary to the nature of the force development and the direction and in this way bench is far superior to an overhead press. I'm by no means saying the bench is the single best upper body exercise, but as far as most sports are concerned it certainly has more transfer than an overhead press.

I can see the use of the overhead press to a limited extent in a maximal strength period, but other than that I see very little use for it whatsoever. There are so many other more specific and more applicable power development exercise to use that make much better choices than the overhead press. The overhead press would have next to no transfer into any measure of horziontal explosive power.

Even if you want to make the argument of how safe the overhead press is on the shoulders, something I obviously disagree with, saying a movement that devleops force vertically byprimarily using the medial deltoids as the prime movers is the most important upper body exercise for sports means you must have a much different training philosophy than myself or any of the eastern european coaches. I respectfully completely disagree with your assessment on the usefulness and relative benefit of the exercise, but to each his own.

On another note, one of my early mentors is one of the strongest drug free powerlifters and bench pressers of all time and he doesn't have the range of motion to overhead press to save his life. He's pressed 800 in competition over the age of 40 doing next to zero overhead pressing in years and he's never had a serious shoulder injury. I've seen many elite powerlifters whose shoulders are still relatively healthy despite severl years of bench pressing and most of them can do very little if any overhead pressing. What is really hard on the shoulders is bodybuilding style bench press with the elbows abducted to 90 degrees, powerlifting style bench press is not very hard on the shoulders at all.

 

[hunto]

Bort what it sounds like to me is this guy is afraid of anything manly, and doesn't want to be cockdesiel. Put weight over you head pussy.

With all due respect MH, don't flame EZA. He knows wayyyyy more than he's letting on here. He has some valid points, and experience to back it up.

All of you might want to re-evaluate what he's said here.

 

[hunto]

Oh, and let's not be in such a hurry to amuse everyone with our witty flames that we miss opportunities to learn. That's one reason we're all here, isn't it?

 

[gza]

change your name its too close to mine
i dont want my flawless reputation being tarnished

 

[bacon]

I'm learning.

 

[liquid!]

2nd that hunto

I hope EZA has time to browse the training logs.

 

[mettalhead]

With all due respect MH, don't flame EZA. He knows wayyyyy more than he's letting on here. He has some valid points, and experience to back it up.

All of you might want to re-evaluate what he's said here.

So maybe I was out of line, maybe I wasn't. The guys got credentials. But I'm going to stand firm in my belief that any exercise you perform puts you at risk of injury. The pros far outweigh the cons from standpoint on this exercise. It's important, putting things above your head is involved in any strength sport, this is a great way to train that/help that.

He's got credentials but I'm going to disagree with him here.

 

[EZA]

I don't mind being questioned or if people want to disagree with me, that's fine, but I would hope people would at least try to debate or share their point of view intelligently and have some sort of real basis for their opinions.

Every exercise has some degree of risk and some degree of benefit depending on the context. In the case of the overhead press there is a higher degree of risk than normal because of the biomechanics of the exercise. Study the shoulder joint for awhile, talk to orthopedic surgeons who have been around sports for awhile, and then you'll see what I'm talking about. The benefit is also not that great as I've already discussed and doesn't outweigh the risk for the most part.

As far as "putting things over your head is involved in any strength sport" please give specific examples in MMA or other sports of where your arms will be extended directly over your head against any measureable amount of resistance. Where exactly is this an important part of an MMA skill? As far as I know from watching, training in, and preparing fighters for many years your opponent is rarely standing on top of you, but maybe your MMA skills are different than mine?

Very rarely in any sport outside of olympic weightlifting, strongman, gymnastics, and a few other sports is there much of a need for any large amount of strength in this movement pattern. Also, the second half the movement is largely triceps strength and there are a million ways to impove tricep strength and power that are more applicable than overhead pressing.

If you're in the Cirqu De Soliel or want to be a part of that human pyramid building thing they do in south america I think it is, then by all means overhead press away, otherwise I think there are much better ways to spend your time training.

 

[Merrill]

There are so many other more specific and more applicable power development exercise to use that make much better choices than the overhead press.



On another note, one of my early mentors is one of the strongest drug free powerlifters and bench pressers of all time and he doesn't have the range of motion to overhead press to save his life. He's pressed 800 in competition over the age of 40 doing next to zero overhead pressing in years and he's never had a serious shoulder injury. I've seen many elite powerlifters whose shoulders are still relatively healthy despite severl years of bench pressing and most of them can do very little if any overhead pressing. What is really hard on the shoulders is bodybuilding style bench press with the elbows abducted to 90 degrees, powerlifting style bench press is not very hard on the shoulders at all.

What are the exercises exactly? Just for reference. I assume bench press is one of them.



I did the shoulder flexibility test like this:

Mine is terrible. I don't even think I can get my hands within 12 inches of each other. Should this be improved or not? I think Eric Cressey has a method for increasing shoulder mobility.

 

[bacon]

Very rarely in any sport outside of olympic weightlifting, strongman, gymnastics, and a few other sports is there much of a need for any large amount of strength in this movement pattern.

This could be why you guys aren't seeing eye to eye. A lot of the posters here dabble in olympic lifts and several compete in strongman. For them, OHP is a staple.

 

[fat_wilhelm]

As far as "putting things over your head is involved in any strength sport" please give specific examples in MMA or other sports of where your arms will be extended directly over your head against any measureable amount of resistance.

Strongman, Olympic Lifting

 

[Merrill]

Very rarely in any sport outside of olympic weightlifting, strongman, gymnastics, and a few other sports is there much of a need for any large amount of strength in this movement pattern.

Strongman, Olympic Lifting

Hmm...

 

[EZA]

For Strongman and Olympic lifting obviously there is a need for overhead press as I stated, but in MMA I don't see the point. Olympic lifters do a ton of shoulder mobility and strength work and have the range of motion generally to overhead press, most other athletes do not. Not to mention many fighters in MMA already have beat up shoulders from years of punching and grapping. The last thing most of them need to be doing is pressing max weight overhead.

 

[Call4Blood]

As far as "putting things over your head is involved in any strength sport" please give specific examples in MMA or other sports of where your arms will be extended directly over your head against any measureable amount of resistance.

 

[fat_wilhelm]

Hmm...

What can I say... I'm a skimmer.