strength training - help me get rid of some final confusions

Discussion in 'Strength & Conditioning Discussion' started by BlackPowder, Oct 14, 2010.

  1. BlackPowder

    BlackPowder White Belt

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    Hey everyone

    I just finished reading through the stickies and FAQ as well as the wikipedia strength training article ;)

    Just to be sure that im doing everything right:

    If youre doing strength training to support your muay thai (or any martial art), to become more powerful and more explosive, the goal of your training will be an increase in strength and not hypertrophy or endurance or so; because:

    And to build that solid base of strength, I would be doing those basic compound lifts, the <<big>> lifts like deadlifts, squat, bench; in a specific workout schedule, for example a three days split.

    And these exercises I would do in the 5 x 5 system. I am a little confused here because people in our local gym told me before that 5 x 5 is <<for pros only>> and that I should do 3 x 8 - 10 on my exercises.
    But 3 x 8 would more result in hypertrophy, right? And thats not what i want, i want strength gain, and for that I should always follow the rule of the 90 percent and do therefore 5 sets 5 reps each.

    Also, to develop explosiveness, I really dont need to do the reps in a special way, like doing the exercise really fast and explosive? Its enough to do 5 x 5 on my exercises, as long as I have good form and a god ROM.

    One final thing. How do I know that I can use more weight on an exercise? Or, for example squatting, when do I put more weight on the bar? When I can do five nice clean reps and feel I could do one more?

    Thanks a lot in advance to everyone helping me with those questions!! (Sorry if I asked kinda noob questions but im a beginner and still lerning ;) )

    Cheers

    Fabian

    P.S.: Little correction: Im not a complete beginner, been training MT for a year and a half, we did some strength there, I also have my own set of dumbells with which I workout at home.
     
  2. Aaron Perls

    Aaron Perls Green Belt Professional Fighter

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    On a 5x5, when you can hit 8 on the last set, that's a pretty standard "move up" benchmark. Some people wait till they can hit 10. Just remember, you want to move up in the smallest increments available.

    As far as rep/set, the fact is that people respond differently to different things. Some people really grow with the good 'ol 3x10 some people more with 5x5.

    Don't worry about growing too much. You need a caloric surplus to grow. If you don't want to grow, don't feed your body enough to grow.

    I like lifting heavy. I respond well to it, so that means lower reps. I did it when I was eating a ton trying to get big, and I did it when I was at a caloric deficit when I was trying to get lean.

    Fast twitch vs. slow twitch is a real thing. When you see people curling 5 pound dumbbells really slowly, they're getting a burn and working the slow-twitch (but mostly just wasting their time).

    You want fast-twitch. So you want some explosiveness. However, if you're going so fast that momentum is carrying the weight through parts of the ROM for you, you should probably increase weight. The negative movement, you can play with more. It should always be controlled, but some people respond well to really dragging it out (like a four count negative movement), others just bring it back in a controlled manner.
     
  3. StevenH

    StevenH Orange Belt

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    Do the workouts you mentioned in the 5x5 system because it's a simple, yet solid foundation for your training (means that you got to eventually progress from that and mix things up). The easiest way to incorporate explosiveness in your workouts, in my opinion, is by adding jumps to whatever you do. So for leg workouts, do box jumps or jump squats, but every time your feet touch the ground you jump again to develop fast muscle twitch fibers (this aids in moving quicker and more explosively). For upper body, there are a variety of jumping push ups and push ups that you can use with medicine balls and bosu balls that will develop explosive power. Those, along with power cleans, are probably the best, simplest workouts to help create explosive power. The bench press, sqaut, and deadlift are great exercises for strength, but not as great for power. Sure you can modify the way that you perform the reps to help build power, but I personally think that jumps are the best and simplest for that. Once it gets easy to perform 50 reps consistently in a workout, you can buy a weighted vest and do the box jumps and explosive push ups with the added weight. You need to do both kinds of workouts to get the strongest, and make sure that at the same time you do some high rep workouts to work on muscle endurance. It is very important in Muay Thai, trust me. You need a great balance of strength, power, and endurance to get in the best shape for fighting.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2010
  4. glennpendlay

    glennpendlay Yellow Belt

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    On the 5x5, when you can hit 5 (FIVE!!!) on the last set, you move up.


     
  5. Tosa

    Tosa Red Belt

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    (1) The people at most gyms don't know what they're talking about. This includes most trainers, as they most likely lack any signifcant relevant education, or experience in properly training athletes.

    (2) You want to lift the bar as quickly as you can, while still using good technique. It may not move quickly, but it's the intent/attempt to move the bar quickly that's important.

    (3) Usually how to progress in described in a routine. If not, when you can do all the presribed reps at sets, and the reps are solid, and not grinded out, then add weight.
     
  6. Tosa

    Tosa Red Belt

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    No.

    Even more no.

    Since he's a beginner, no.

    No. He's goal is strength/power. Sets of ten would be stupid.

    No.

    No. No. No.
     
  7. KnightTemplar

    KnightTemplar Halloween Belt Platinum Member

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    So apart from all that, Tosa, he got everything right?:icon_chee
     
  8. DrBdan

    DrBdan Something clever

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    I was going to give a productive answer but Tosa already beat me to it so I'll just be a jerk instead.

    [​IMG]

    Fixed.
     
  9. Aaron Perls

    Aaron Perls Green Belt Professional Fighter

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    I think we've established that you and I agree on very little.

    You don't need to waste your time responding to my posts, you can just post your opinion and be done with it.

    OP, one thing you will find is that people disagree. Some people pretend they have to know everything all the time, and that discussions on internet forums are not a place for trying to be innovative/discuss trying new things.

    A number of things Tosa has looked down on from his high-thrown, have served people well, including myself, in the Marines, in combat, as well as successfully in power-lifting (where you know, the entire goal is explosive strength).
     
  10. Aaron Perls

    Aaron Perls Green Belt Professional Fighter

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    So apparently this is a massive forum, with like five guys who'd opinions are taken seriously.

    I'll stay out of this section.

    This is clearly not a section of the forums where things are open for debate or discussion.

    OP, just remember, post count just means they've shared their opinions on this forum more. Doesn't speak to their real-world knowledge.
     
  11. Tosa

    Tosa Red Belt

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    No.

    Also powerlifting is one word. And a matter of absolute strength, and not explosive strength.
     
  12. pliftkl

    pliftkl Green Belt

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    You might want to Google Glenn Pendlay, who was the first to correct your post...
     
  13. DrBdan

    DrBdan Something clever

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    The issue is that you are giving bad advice. Things are open for debate but suggesting that the TS should do 8 reps when he's talking about a 5x5 isn't debatable, it's ridiculous.
     
  14. Aaron Perls

    Aaron Perls Green Belt Professional Fighter

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    You got some chip on your shoulder guy, especially considering where your numbers are on your log.

    Absolute strength is strength without regard to your body size. Pullups, dips, exe. don't test absolute strength, they test relative strength. When you talk about absolute strength, you compare it to relative strength.

    In fact powerlifting tests relative strength, because it's done with weight categories.

    Explosive strength is dependent on absolute strength, but has everything to do with muscle activation, allowing instant and continued activation of a large % of muscle fibers.
     
  15. pliftkl

    pliftkl Green Belt

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    I think his point was probably that Olympic lifting is a test of explosive strength in that the bar must be moved quickly, while powerlifting is more of a test of strength (at a given weight class).
     
  16. Aaron Perls

    Aaron Perls Green Belt Professional Fighter

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    I would say a strong-man competition is a test of strength, where you are usually simply moving an object. A deadlift is more like that too. But a bench and squat, where you start your range of motion loaded is explosive strength at work.
     
  17. DrBdan

    DrBdan Something clever

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    It sounds like we're just arguing semantics now.

    As far as I know explosive strength is defined as the ability to produce a large amount of force in a short period of time whereas max strength is simply the ability to produce a large amount of force.

    What you are talking about is generally referred to as the stretch reflex, the idea that at the bottom of a squat/bench (or any lift that has an eccentric portion) you get a bit of a bounce from the muscle stretching.
     
  18. Aaron Perls

    Aaron Perls Green Belt Professional Fighter

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    I'm not talking about the bounce, I'm talking about that at the start of the motion your muscles are already engaged (you're supporting the weight already, it's not being held my the ground), and then applying addition, instantaneous (or in a very short period of time) additional force to complete the lift.

    Anyway, sorry to drag the thread into stupid-land.
     
  19. pjmeunyc12

    pjmeunyc12 Purple Belt

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    people are not tolerent here, you will learn quickly. But there are a ton of knowledgeable guys to pull info from here, even though some may come off as condescending asses.
     
  20. Tosa

    Tosa Red Belt

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    You're an ignoramus, and you contribute nothing but ignorance.

    Strongman has elements of strength endurance and conditioning, and is not a pure test of absolute strength like powerlifting. That's right, absolute strength...as in the goal is to have the highest total possible...the fact that for competive purposes it's compared to people of a similar weight range or using wilks is secondary. Besides which, trying to turn this into an argument about the semantics of relative strength vs. absolute strength is ridiculous, and doesn't change the fact that the goal of powerlifting is not explosive strength.

    The squat and bench are not a test of explosive strength, and the involvement of the stretch reflex has nothing to do with whether a lift is explosive or not.
     

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