Strength training and MMA discussion

[BJJ in Chicago]

We also need to realize (and I believe this is a HUGE point) is that most routines do not take into account how much bjj/grappling/mma sparring the person is doing.

Person A grapples 2x/day for 5x5min. rounds ea. session
Person B grapples 2x/week for 5x5min. rounds ea. session

The strength and conditioning program for each of these people SHOULD be totally different.

This is evidenced in Leo Morton's recent article where he gives an example of a strength/conditioning routine for 'Person A' above:

www.insidebjj.com]A[/url] small sample size, but I trained Abmar Barbosa and his student Garrett for both the 2009 and 2010 Pan Championship. Due to equipment and space issues, the training in 2009 was almost entirely circuit based. In 2010, we did almost no traditional conditioning, just a power/strength routine 2x per week, and heavy sled pushes 2x per week (but we never sprinted with the sled). Both Abmar and Garrett performed considerably better in 2010, and both medaled. But more important than the medal, they felt better while rolling, and their partners all reported that they felt significantly more powerful. In my opinion, their conditioning was already good – they were rolling hard 2, even 3 times per day. But I believed both of them could have been far stronger, so that’s where we put our focus, and I think the training delivered

Now Person B is a person much more like me. My training varies depending on how far out from a tournament I am and what equipment I have available to me. But I can attest that I need to do more conditioning outside of bjj than abmar barbosa would. What I've found success with is using Jim Wendler's 5/3/1 (as the core of the program) with variations for assistance and conditioning depending on my goals.

I would agree with Leo that more of the guys at my gym would benefit from more strength work and less conditioning. His full article can be found here: Strength & Conditioning for Jiu-Jitsu Part II by Leo Morton : Inside BJJ

 

[Bedlam]

There are no perfect general solutions for everyone. If you look at somebody who is successful in the sport without looking at how they got there, and why they train the way they do, you'll never understand how to apply their workout to yourself.

Take an honest look at yourself before you start any program. What are your needs? Does the program address them? Do you meet the prerequisites for the program? Is there something more important you should be training? Are you getting enough rest and food? Is there enough time to finish the program before competition/your fight? Is anything missing from the program? Are you falling behind in another aspect (strength, endurance, power, technique, sparring)?

 

[paolo27th]

Are there any strength and condition programs out in your area? I know my local professors use this for Jiujitsu. The company tailors different workouts for different type of athletes.


YouTube - Juggernaut Training Systems-Jiu Jitsu Conditioning Circuit

"Energy System Circuit"? What energy system? Do they even know what energy systems are and how they work or do they just like the sound of it? And what`s the difference between this and crossfit?

I remember people saying that once you get to (x5 reps or x1 rep? never knew) 1.5 bw squat, 1.75 bw deadlift and 1.25 bw bench, your effort would be better spent in doing explosive movements since getting your numbers any bigger would result in you getting slower (I believe it was Rip who said it). So those would be good objectives for someone doing a sport and lifting bigger numbers would be beneficial but only if you do explosive movements with them.

Correct me if im wrong please.

You got it 30% right. The idea is that the more force you are trying to produce and the more time, preparation, balance etc. you need. The conditions of an mma fight simply do not allow you to use more force than that so once you reach that level it`s kind of pointless to keep trying to gain more strenght as you`ll simply never be able to use it. At that point it`s much more productive to work on how fast you are trying to generate force.

There are no perfect general solutions for everyone. If you look at somebody who is successful in the sport without looking at how they got there, and why they train the way they do, you'll never understand how to apply their workout to yourself.

Take an honest look at yourself before you start any program. What are your needs? Does the program address them? Do you meet the prerequisites for the program? Is there something more important you should be training? Are you getting enough rest and food? Is there enough time to finish the program before competition/your fight? Is anything missing from the program? Are you falling behind in another aspect (strength, endurance, power, technique, sparring)?

A big part of program design is also testing. Of course you need is to find tests that are actually relevant and then know how your results stack up among the mma polulation. Once you have that you can set a clear goal and design a program to achiave it.

 

[BJJ in Chicago]

"Energy System Circuit"? What energy system? Do they even know what energy systems are and how they work or do they just like the sound of it? And what`s the difference between this and crossfit?

depends on what you mean by crossfit.

and honestly, i put a lot of stock into the work chad and nate do at juggernaut. read up on why they do the work they do. this is just one example of what they do with their guys.

for example, they do more than just circuits:

 

[Chris Beeby]

Just like to say that I am a beginner lifter (been here a while, my form is very good but I haven't lifted much for progress). As per the faq, SS 1 and 2, and this, I am adding lifting back into my routine in less than a week.

I walk around about 170, and plan to get to 195/190 with a dirty bulk and then 180 solid after my November 9th fight, which will be either at 170 or 155, depending on how this cut goes and how I perform October 16th (my first am. fight).

My training schedule will look like this.

Monday:
Prehab Circuit
Conditioning (Based on what cycle my coach has us on, it's periodized over ~12 weeks, it can be strength, coordination, or support muscle based) 1 hour
Muay Thai 1 hour
Grappling 1 hour

Tuesday:
Day 1 of 2 day split (probably squats, OHP, BORs as I think these are most important for where I am lacking strength, as well as SOME grip, probably pinching/crushing)
Sparring MMA 1 hour
Grappling 1 hour
Stretching/Prehab

Wednesday: Same as Monday

Thursday: Same as Tuesday but with Deads, Bench, Weighted pullups

Friday: Same as Monday (I sometimes take Fridays off if I feel worn out, the gym is usually pretty empty around then.)

 

[Dr Boondigga]

Is dropping most of if not all the accessories out of a normal strength program to accommodate training on the side a good idea? This is what I've been doing to allow myself more time to recover.

 

[Tosa]

Is dropping most of if not all the accessories out of a normal strength program to accommodate training on the side a good idea? This is what I've been doing to allow myself more time to recover.

It would depend on the strength routine, and the purpose of the accessories in the routine. For example in the Wendler 5/3/1 most of the volume comes from accessory lifts, and depending on the individual, their inclusion could be quite important. Or in Sheiko the accessory work isn't a signifcant source of training load, and depending on how it's done, it's inclusion can benefit recovery / mobility / joint health. And some routines don't have much, if anything, in the way of accessory work to begin with, so removing it won't make any real difference. Now that's not to say it won't work...but I can't say it would either, not without more specifics.

So what you really have to do is either (A) find a routine that works with your other training as is (B) put more thought into modifying a routine, or (B) Create a routine that works for you.

 

[Dr Boondigga]

Well I'm doing Bill stars 5X5 power routine, just without the sit-ups, reverse hypers and other accessory stuff.

 

[Tosa]

Well I'm doing Bill stars 5X5 power routine, just without the sit-ups, reverse hypers and other accessory stuff.

I don't think excluding that stuff really reduces the training load signifcantly. On the other hand, if you don't think you'll benefit, why do it? I'd keep the reverse hypers and /or back extensions though, because they decompress the spine, which helps keep your back healthy.

 

[Dr Boondigga]

Kk, I just dont have acess to a reverse-hyper machine, but I've heard of being able to do it with just a bench. Cheers

 

[mtruitt76]

Is dropping most of if not all the accessories out of a normal strength program to accommodate training on the side a good idea? This is what I've been doing to allow myself more time to recover.

This is pretty much what I do. I am currently following the 5/3/1 program and I will only do one assistance exercise per major lift. I still make gains in the major lifts following this routine, so it is feasible. You really don't need a ton of volume to make strength gains, just make sure you have a solid base.

 

[paolo27th]

Just like to say that I am a beginner lifter (been here a while, my form is very good but I haven't lifted much for progress). As per the faq, SS 1 and 2, and this, I am adding lifting back into my routine in less than a week.

I walk around about 170, and plan to get to 195/190 with a dirty bulk and then 180 solid after my November 9th fight, which will be either at 170 or 155, depending on how this cut goes and how I perform October 16th (my first am. fight).

My training schedule will look like this.

Monday:
Prehab Circuit
Conditioning (Based on what cycle my coach has us on, it's periodized over ~12 weeks, it can be strength, coordination, or support muscle based) 1 hour
Muay Thai 1 hour
Grappling 1 hour

Tuesday:
Day 1 of 2 day split (probably squats, OHP, BORs as I think these are most important for where I am lacking strength, as well as SOME grip, probably pinching/crushing)
Sparring MMA 1 hour
Grappling 1 hour
Stretching/Prehab

Wednesday: Same as Monday

Thursday: Same as Tuesday but with Deads, Bench, Weighted pullups

Friday: Same as Monday (I sometimes take Fridays off if I feel worn out, the gym is usually pretty empty around then.)

Dude you are overdoing it. You won`t gain 20lbs of muscle in a month and you definitely won`t gain any weight while doing all that cardio. And your timing is pretty bad too as you`re preparing for a fight.

I`d suggest you completely revamp your training program. Reduce your gpp sessions to 3 a week and try do them on non skill training days or when you do less sparring and other demanding stuff.

Oh, and I suggest you do gpp AFTER skill training. Make sure you are focussed when you are practicing your actual sport, conditioning is nothing but a supplement.

 

[BJJ in Chicago]

Mike, glad to see you finally got that purple belt!

 

[Bedlam]

2 days of lifting, 2-3 days conditioning, and skill training 4-5 days? Doesn't seem that rough to me.

I'd do the GPP after skill work too.

 

[paolo27th]

2 days of lifting, 2-3 days conditioning, and skill training 4-5 days? Doesn't seem that rough to me.

I'd do the GPP after skill work too.

It`s just too much general work. Skill training includes alot of specific conditioning in the form of sparring, drilling, pad/bag work etc. If you feel the need to add 1hr of gpp to every training session you do that makes me wonder what you are actually doing during the skill sessions.

 

[BJJ in Chicago]

It`s just too much general work. Skill training includes alot of specific conditioning in the form of sparring, drilling, pad/bag work etc. If you feel the need to add 1hr of gpp to every training session you do that makes me wonder what you are actually doing during the skill sessions.

I agree. For example, I was talking to my coach recently and he was talking about learning wrestling defense. He mentioned that after working pads and the heavy bag with intensity for an hour or two, he would defend 100 single takedowns before practice could end.

Honestly, that's what a "skill" session should look like. Granted that session is taken way out of the context of his overall training plan, but it gives a good picture of what some of us mean by a skill session.

If you are doing another hour of work on top of that, you're probably better off upping the intensity of your skill session or extending the time you work on your skills.

 

[Chris Beeby]

Dude you are overdoing it. You won`t gain 20lbs of muscle in a month and you definitely won`t gain any weight while doing all that cardio. And your timing is pretty bad too as you`re preparing for a fight.

I`d suggest you completely revamp your training program. Reduce your gpp sessions to 3 a week and try do them on non skill training days or when you do less sparring and other demanding stuff.

Oh, and I suggest you do gpp AFTER skill training. Make sure you are focussed when you are practicing your actual sport, conditioning is nothing but a supplement.

This will be after my November fight, I guess I typed it out wrong. I don't plan on gaining fast, it will be a long term goal with the main goal getting stronger. I have gained doing it before, I can do it again. I'm 19, I get a lot of free testosterone.

What I meant was that if my coach deems it acceptable, I will work back towards 170 for my next fight, as weighing 155 for a same day weigh-in might be rough. I would not have to cut and fight at 100% athletic performance.

The strength work will be very low volume, likely a 3x5 or 5/3/1. Our sparring intensity is subjective, as is everything else. I can handle it.

Edit: November fight is off.