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?strength shoes and/or jumpsoles?

Discussion in 'Strength & Conditioning Discussion' started by DaGREATkabookie**, Aug 2, 2005.

  1. the strength shoe is a shoe w/ a platform about 2 inches or so on the toe it lengthens the range of motion for the calf. My question is does anyone know any other exercises besides general polymetric exercises that i may try, also how many times per week would you suggest that use them, also has anyone used them and what type of results did you get.
     
  2. Abe Wagner

    Abe Wagner Guest

    I used them a lot back when I played football. When you order them they come with a whole set up workout plan and guidelines for when to advance from beginner to intermediate to advanced on the workouts. My calves didn't really get that much bigger, but my vertical jump went from 32" to 37". By the way I'm white and weigh over 250 lbs. I would recommend them to anyone.
     
  3. Evil Eye Gouger

    Evil Eye Gouger Gold Belt

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    I know people who used them and didn't achieve spectacular results.

    While jump soles and the like certainly do help with jumping (I assume that's what you're trying to do), I think that motions which resemble jumping are better.

    I'd recommend a combination of depth jumps, jumping plyometrics, calf raises (or jump soles) and squats. This way you train and strengthen all the relevant muscles in both classical and plyometric way.
     
  4. Lusst

    Lusst Red Belt

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    Evil Eye Gouger...where is your avatar from? I have seen it somewhere but can't put my finger on it (no pun intended).
     
  5. Evil Eye Gouger

    Evil Eye Gouger Gold Belt

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    I don't know, to be honest. The best I could summon (from the remaining photos) is that it was from some (very) low budget zombie movie.

    Gotcha!

    It's from my last streetfight.
     
  6. nudge119

    nudge119 Green Belt

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    Stronger hams and quads will increase your vertical more than stronger calves will. So do more squats, stiff legged deads etc.... also shedding any excess bodyfat will also help a lot.

    Oh, and Evil eye gouger, bring back Rumsfeld!!!
     
  7. killer_kicks88

    killer_kicks88 Green Belt

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    i bought jumpsoles, and to be honest, they are alot of fun...but i think just regular plyometrics aren't far behind, and for the money they aren't really that worth it, but if you love plyometric training, then they are awesome
     
  8. djmarkiss

    djmarkiss Green Belt

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    Yeh I got jumpsoles too. Actually got them from Big 5 on sale a while back. Love using them. My calves didn't get bigger either but my vertical improved a lot. The good thing about the jumpsoles compared to the other ones that have the shoe with them already is the jumpsoles you can keep even if your foot grows so you dont have to buy another pair.
     
  9. Todd Gack

    Todd Gack Dutch

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    Are those the same shoes that George Costanza and Jimmy try to sell on "Seinfeld?"
     
  10. Lusst

    Lusst Red Belt

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    I may have just been dreaming here...but wasnt there a movie where this guy gouges this other guy? I remember the gougee was screaming like hell, and then all the sudden stopped because the gouger had gone so deep, he squished his brain. Man...im hoping this wanst a dream. :icon_neut
     
  11. Tallguy76

    Tallguy76 White Belt

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    Strong calves are important for jumping also though. You need to have speed and power at toe-off. The hip and quad strength expressed when jumping has has to be forced through the feet for propulsion. Having weak calves would inhibit the the expression of the force and rate produced and become a weak link. I've read that all the force produced in jumping has an amazing rate of force development. Something like .3 seconds. Which is why having a big squat does not always mean having a big verticle jump. Most sporting movements happen too fast for maximum force to develop. Max strength is important but the ability to express that strength fast (rate of force development) is more important.

    I've read some pretty interesting stuff on speed and verticle jump and how they are related on Kelly Baggett's Websight. I also found a workout there that has worked well for me. I haven't measused my verticle since high school but I am 28 6ft4 and 255 lbs and can still dunk a basketball.


    Here is the link to the article. This websight is good for beginners to get aqauinted with some some of the principals of inno-sport type training but much easier to understand then the inno-sport websight.
    http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/jumphigher.html
     
  12. MadDildo

    MadDildo Shame Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Jumpsoles have been proven time and time again to offer no edge to a normal plyometric routine; all they've been shown to do is increase the chance of injury while training plyometrics. They're worthless, get rid of them.

    You want to jump higher? Gouger is right about the rim jumps and depth jumps- those should form the core of your plyometric routine. In the weight room, hit legs twice a week; one day, cleans should be your priority lift, one day, squats should be your priority lift.

    And there is a magic workout, Chu wrote it in his second edition of "Jumping Into Plyometrics." It's the 5-5-5 squat routine. 5 slow squats + 5 Dynamic (fast as you can) squats + 5 jump squats.

    I'm 6'5" 250 lbs. and I can bring my head to within 2" of the breakaway box. My eighth grade coach told me I would never dunk.

    Just do the hard shit, dunking ain't that special.
     
  13. MadDildo

    MadDildo Shame Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    I work with a number of CSCS's and they all disagree with this. You get the necessary calf strength in the cleans & squats and through your plyometric routine simulating actual jumping. Working out your calves is mostly a waste of time.
     
  14. MadDildo

    MadDildo Shame Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Yes.
     
  15. Evil Eye Gouger

    Evil Eye Gouger Gold Belt

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    I agree with this post.

    What I did while I was still in high school was a combination of plyo jumps (lean a stick against a wall, then jump over it, left-right, while you approach the wall and back again), plyo calf raises (toes on a stair, one foot only, and bounce up and down, with a rucksack on your back) and bodyweight squats. In a couple of months, I had made great improvement on my jump.

    It's been a while since then, and I still haven't lost any of my jump (it's increased, even although I'm much heavier). I don't play basketball that often nowadays, but if I wanted to increase my vertical leap today, it would consist of:

    - depth jumps
    - plyo jumps (yeah, that stick thing)
    - squats (alternating heavy/dynamic)
    - probably some unilateral leg work too from time to time

    and lots of jumping. Wanna dunk that basketball? Keep trying it all the time until you do it. Finding the right range and working on your jumping technique is just as important as leg strength.
     
  16. SlappyMacGee

    SlappyMacGee Banned Banned

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    To put it simply, you get better at jumping by jumping. Do a variety of jumping excercises including plyo and jump rope.
     
  17. Lusst

    Lusst Red Belt

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    I played football with a guy in highschool who had a 43" verticle...yes, 43 inches. I never saw him do any type of exercise to improve it, its just how he was made. Now, a white boy like me, I can get up there pretty good, and I owe it to squats for that explosive power that gets my ass off the ground.
     
  18. knight

    knight Purple Belt

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    I always love reading your input Madmick but regarding this post, I disagree with them being worthless.

    You mention Don Chu, who redesigned Frank Shamrock's conditioning routine in the late 90's. Frank later trained with jumpsoles for his fight with Ortiz and was personally blown away with the results. Around this time, I believed Don Chu promoted the jumpsoles to a degree (just as he has done later on with the X-vest). Maurice Smith loved them too.

    I'm a mod at frank's forum and have been in contact with him for a long time so we sometimes share training ideas. In the following vid he explains why he doesn't train with them anymore (at 6:12): YouTube - fan questions part 3

    This is an old article that Frank wrote regarding the jumpsoles (saved this a long time ago):

    "Be On Your Toes!
    Training Tips

    by Frank Shamrock


    In the lifelong pursuit of martial arts, my style and training have changed many times. I believe the very essence of martial arts is the thirst for knowledge and the truth about us.

    One truth that has remained constant is that, "Everything works but nothing works for long," at least not without improvement. It's human nature to want to constantly re-examine and question not only the reasons why something works, but also the reasons why it fails.

    In preparing for my fifth UFC title fight I was forced to examine not only the weaknesses of my style but I had to acknowledge the strengths of my opponent's.

    Would my training and technique be enough to take out this 6-foot-3, 220-pound college wrestling champion who could punch, kick and knee with devastating power I would not only have to be the faster striker but I would need good, evasive movement to keep from meeting head to head with all that size and power.

    My wife, Angelina, and I looked at my current training and realized I needed more explosive movement and quicker feet. Angelina found the answer with the Jumpsoles, a plyometric-training tool that not only strengthens the fast-twitch muscles of the lower body but also specifically targets the tibiallus and gastric nemaus. The Jumpsoles work the front, back and sides of your calves, as well as all the secondary proprioceptor muscles responsible for balance and reaction. Jumpsoles have long been a favorite in the basketball world where jumping and footwork are a must for winning and gaining control of the game.
    When you strike or grapple all your momentum starts in your feet and is followed with your body for whatever attack you decide to make. You have no doubt heard the term "he or she is flat". This refers to a fighter who is totally flat-footed in a fight. If I were to place my foot flat on the. ground and try to move it, first I would have to lift to the balls of the feet before I went anywhere. Not only does it take twice as long to move, but it will also take twice the energy to do so. Just the act of
     
  19. MadDildo

    MadDildo Shame Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Okay, any statement requires more qualification than what I gave, but I've learned in these forums that in order to get across your idea such that it is followed, sometimes you have to use very strong language.

    There have been several instances where friends of my employed those shoes for their clients because they thought the overload might help address a specific weakness in the calf...but keep in mind, these people had exceptionally weak calves (even in relation to the rest of their legs) when they made those decisions.

    Here's my theory; whatever usefulness is unique to the shoes is probably more accurately associated with neuromuscular coordination; that is, it teaches people who distribute their weight almost exclusively on their heels to redistribute more of their weight to their toes. The "alien" feel that the shoes have when you step into them is particularly useful for this goal, possibly, because it's a constant reminder during the training session to redistribute one's weight...and this means that more repetitions of the proper neuromuscular movement are repeated without relapses into a previous weight distribution. This almost certainly has a positive effect on imprinting the athlete's muscle memory and is therefore an effective gimmick, basically, to teach balance.

    This doesn't mean it improves the results of plyometric regimens for almost everybody...just a very, very small number of people with extraordinarily weak calves. Since people who distribute an inordinate amount of their weight to their heels spend their days walking without using their calves almost completely. These people are the most likely to have exceptionally weak calves in the first place, so it makes sense to me.

    If Don Chu now embraces the Jump Soles, then that's news to me. He was one of its earliest critics. I would assume if he has that he has for the reason I've outlined; that's it's more about teaching the athlete a new way to balance/move that benefits him in his sport more then simply addressing his weak point, physically, would do. That would also explain why the vast sums of data show that the Jumpsoles don't improve vertical leap over controlled programs that do not; there would be little benefit to improved neuromuscular coordination since the calf is responsible for so little of the power input involved in a jump. Chu also might recommend these products because they threw a shitload of money at him. Who knows?

    As per Athlete testimonial: any product used in training that gets widespread distribution that doesn't negatively affect training is bound to get positive reviews...whether or not they're merited. The increased risk of injury isn't apparent to any athlete except the one that injures himself, and since the shoes don't seem to negatively affect gains that would have otherwise been made without them, well...it's just all about the Placebo, IMO. And that's why I could see Chu cashing checks. If he figures, they don't cause that much harm...so isn't there more harm in me not taking this check? The world is gray.

    But then, I'm a bit out of the loop. Your post informed me of several facts of which I've been ignorant, apparently. And never forget the scientific method isn't something that only "scientists" can use (whoever they are): it's all about trial and error. If you've trained with them and see a definite benefit over not training with them, then fuck stats. You'd be one of the exceptions to the rule in that stat book, anyway, right?
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2010
  20. MadDildo

    MadDildo Shame Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Oh, and Lusst, didn't you see that Tim Tebow's 38" vertical leap was the highest ever recorded at the NFL Combine by a quarterback?

    I think he's part injun.
     

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