"Street" / "Self Defense"

[triso]

This is a series of RANTs for all the street warriors on the board. Please do not read any futher if you do not want to be offended.

All the keyboard warriors talking about street fights and self defense need to STFU.

A fight is a fight. If you think in a fight you aren't going to have some kind of injury and pain inflicted upon you, you have never been in a fight.

You are not coming out unscathed. If you think it's painful to fight on the ground in the street, you are correct. That doesn't change the fact that a lot of fights end up on the ground, because when you are fighting you DO NOT GIVE A FUCK about the pain.

Any grappling art will help you when fighting someone (or the "street"), especially an untrained someone. Have you ever used grappling against someone who doesn't know wtf you are doing? Try it sometime; you will be AMAZED by the results. You'll look a lot like Royce did in the early UFCs. Early MMA is the proof.

Why does everyone assume grapplers have to go for a sub in a street fight? Can't we hold a mount, side mount, back mount, pin, and proceed to punch, knee, and elbow your head, neck, and body until we feel satisfied? And if we did want to go for a sub, how many people would know what the hell we were doing, let alone know how to defend it?

Also (contrary to popular belief), just because you take Jiu Jitsu does not mean you will be pulling guard in a street fight. If a BJJ player does get put on their back, guess who most likely has the advantage. Will your back get scraped, probably, do you give a fuck when someone is trying to hurt you, NO.

I'm sure if a Judo guy got a hold of you, the throw to the concrete would hurt quite a bit.

Same goes for a Wrestling slam or takedown.

As for weapons, and multiple attackers, you are FUCKED in this situation no matter what ART you train. You're a Boxer, Thai Fighter, Kenpo "street" fighter, congratulations you've just been stabbed in the back, or jumped by 5 people. It's a risk you run when fighting someone, if you are scared of that, then don't fight. It's much easier that way.

Oh yeah, and a punch usually doesn't end a fight (unless it's a sucker punch). You don't get hit and that's it, fights over; most of the time no one gets KTFO in a fight. They just get hit and fall to the ground, where the guy who hit him, jumps on him and continues hitting him.

Why does everyone think people on the street are badass MMA fighters? You must not have been around too many fights then, because most people come out swinging with wide looping bombs. Either that or they charge you and clinch with you, using dirty boxing and shitty grappling to throw you around or take you to the ground.

/end rant

P.S.
Is there any way we could get a Street Fighting or Self Defense forum on Sherdog? As much as I don't want this, maybe it would rid the good boards of the ridiculous, "yeah but in the street" posts and the "[insert art] does not work in the street" threads. This way all the people who haven't trained, keyboard warriors who've never been in a fight, and other idiots can go and speculate there; not wasting and more valuable space the forums, like my recent thread.

 

[JustSomeGuy]

Lot of good points. Few thoughts:

Size, strength, speed, ferocity all make a difference despite what anyone says.

With that said all things being equal, the untrained lose to the dynamically trained. Meaning a boxer, MMAist, Judoka, Wrestler will usually easily handle the untrained. Some of the passively trained TMA'ers will stand there and eat sucker punches when the adrenaline hits.

Not sure where you were going with the Judo/Wrestling comment. Don't underestimate a hard impact with the concrete.

Where BJJ'ers get in trouble:

Don't think that gently rolling around at the BJJ school and having a killer bottom gi game is automatically going to save you when it hits the ground. If you have not dynamically trained in a situation close to what you will encounter then don't believe you can instantly transpose your skills to that situation. Having an extremely angry person on top of you raining down strikes can have a seriously negating effect on even the best bottom game.

 

[Balto]

I wasn't going to reply to this, but I changed my mind.

A fight is a fight. If you think in a fight you aren't going to have some kind of injury and pain inflicted upon you, you have never been in a fight.

Fair enough.

Any grappling art will help you when fighting someone (or the "street"), especially an untrained someone. Have you ever used grappling against someone who doesn't know wtf you are doing? Try it sometime; you will be AMAZED by the results. You'll look a lot like Royce did in the early UFCs. Early MMA is the proof.

Yep.

Why does everyone assume grapplers have to go for a sub in a street fight? Can't we hold a mount, side mount, back mount, pin, and proceed to punch, knee, and elbow your head, neck, and body until we feel satisfied? And if we did want to go for a sub, how many people would know what the hell we were doing, let alone know how to defend it?

The problem with holding the mount and striking is that it limits your mobility. Yes, you are dominant over the person who have pinned. You are not dominant over anyone else who happens to attack you as well. The mount is not a good position when your opponent's friend kicks you in the head while you are doing GnP.

I'm sure if a Judo guy got a hold of you, the throw to the concrete would hurt quite a bit.

Same goes for a Wrestling slam or takedown.

Yes.

As for weapons, and multiple attackers, you are FUCKED in this situation no matter what ART you train. You're a Boxer, Thai Fighter, Kenpo "street" fighter, congratulations you've just been stabbed in the back, or jumped by 5 people. It's a risk you run when fighting someone, if you are scared of that, then don't fight. It's much easier that way.

Not true. In fact, this is one of the worst misconceptions that MMA people have. It is just as bad as the TMA "we can't be taken down so grappling doesn't work on us."

It is equivalent to the ignorant people who say "As for fighting someone with a size/strength advantage, you are FUCKED in this situation no matter what ART you train." We all know that BJJ can overcome this. Sure, size/strength is a factor, but we train so that we can mitigate it.

You can also train arts that mitigate the advantages of weapons and multiple attackers. Just like BJJ, it is impossible for these arts to completely remove these advantages. However, they do mitigate them (just like BJJ mitigated size/strength enough for Royce to win in the early UFC).

Why does everyone think people on the street are badass MMA fighters? You must not have been around too many fights then, because most people come out swinging with wide looping bombs. Either that or they charge you and clinch with you, using dirty boxing and shitty grappling to throw you around or take you to the ground.

It's been my experience that most fights involve multiple people jumping you (sometime with weapons). They are definitely unskilled opponents as you say. But I can't even remember a fair fight that I have been in. Multiple attackers is a very common scenario.

 

[Eric O]

Fight skills > No fight skills

In 1 on 1 and multiple attackers. It doesn't mean you'll win but you'll have a better chance.

 

[alexgncw]

any kinda of martial arts training will give you an advantage over the untrained and yes there's a big difference btw sports jitsu and using it in a street fight but that doesn't mean bjj won't work on the street it will still give you a huge advantage on the ground even if you use 10% of what you know ... still doesn't mean you will beat your opponent but you will have an advantage

as to the weapons/multiple attackers comment - again depending on the situation but if you are going against someone with a knife or a group of more then 2 attackers the best strategy is to use the cardio you got from bjj and run like the wind in a situation with 2 attackers, i've been in this position once and ended up beating them long enough for my friends to get there i think the best thing to do is attack the weaker opponent with everything you got and just try to take them out of the fight as fast as possible almost ignoring the other guy in the process then proceed to taking on the tougher person

 

[DMcKayBJJ]

You can also train arts that mitigate the advantages of weapons and multiple attackers. Just like BJJ, it is impossible for these arts to completely remove these advantages. However, they do mitigate them (just like BJJ mitigated size/strength enough for Royce to win in the early UFC).
QUOTE]

Unless I'm reading you wrong, I'd have to disagree...at least with the weapons part.
Weapons change EVERYTHING. Guns, pepper spray...these effectively allow someone to attack someone else from a MUCH longer range than just punches and kicks, and result in much different damage, as well.
I don't believe there is ANY good weapon-less form of fighting that would effectively mitigate the obvious tremendous advantage that a gun-wielding opponent has (despite what Krav Maga and such would lead us to believe).

 

[Commissar]

Yes. Any martial art is good in a streetfight. But most have flaws.

BJJ doesn't train striking. Taekwondo does very little punching. Kickboxing does no groundfighting. Kung-fu does no real-time sparring.

However, any tactics you recieve from these martial arts are effective in streetfights/self-defense.

 

[Colby18***]

A huge factor I think with going to the ground is all the foul play that can go on. You can get bit, eye gouged, fish hook if you think your going to fight fair.

If you fight, fight dirty, biting is a huge asset when its time to grapple. THere so close to ya and its always right there . Bite the shit outa them, headbutt its all there.

But...I'd prefer to standup.

 

[alexgncw]

You can also train arts that mitigate the advantages of weapons and multiple attackers. Just like BJJ, it is impossible for these arts to completely remove these advantages. However, they do mitigate them (just like BJJ mitigated size/strength enough for Royce to win in the early UFC).
QUOTE]

Unless I'm reading you wrong, I'd have to disagree...at least with the weapons part.
Weapons change EVERYTHING. Guns, pepper spray...these effectively allow someone to attack someone else from a MUCH longer range than just punches and kicks, and result in much different damage, as well.
I don't believe there is ANY good weapon-less form of fighting that would effectively mitigate the obvious tremendous advantage that a gun-wielding opponent has (despite what Krav Maga and such would lead us to believe).

you are part right ... like i said above if someone pulls a gun on you the smartest thing you can do is give them your wallet and run but assuming thats not an option and the person really does wanna shoot you what options do you have? you can try to grab/knock their gun hand away and start striking, you can shoot in for the takedown and hope they don't blow your head off in the process, you can try some akido junk to disarm them, etc none of these are good strategies by any means and all are very likely to get you killed but if you have no other choice the martial arts that teach you the above methods will help you like if you've wrestled or something you will have a better chance of shooting in faster and avoiding the weapon then someone with no training

 

[Zankou]

These points are all true. There should be a sticky about obvious streetfighting points.

I also agree about the multiple attacker/weapon thing. You are totally reamed if you get multiple attackers, unless you have considerable physical advantage over them. All the TMA guys who talk about "multiple attackers" should be put in a boxing ring with two guys their own size and see how they do. Or even one guy their own size. It is HARD to KTFO somebody with equivalent physical ability in RL. "Mitigation," maybe, but you're still talking 1% of the time you get away without being taken out. Same with grappling -- go up against two guys at the same time grappling, see how well that goes for you.

If you get a sucker punch off, if the guys are smaller, if they're drunk, etc you might have a chance. But two aware guys your own size = teh doom.

 

[VampireMonk]

agree with 90% of the starter poster.
90% that is a lot!!! now dont get too greedy now

as for if a guy pulls a weapon or multiple attackers?
just like BJJ doesn't guarantee you will be pulling guard,
hell it doesn't even guarantee you will win your street fight,
it just HELPS. how hard you train, your innate abilities, your
genetics, all those things help too.

but I believe that there are certain arts styles out there that
favor, fighting multiple opponents and weapons.

you would have to break down all the MAJOR possible types of
street fights and see which styles are the better suited for that.

1 on 1 no weapon, "clean" challenge fight to the finish I would say BJJ does damn well.
against a blade, I would like to have tons of eskrima practice, or perhaps some Kempo
with a heavy emphasis on weaponry...

etc. etc.

 

[SwiftMcvay]

A huge factor I think with going to the ground is all the foul play that can go on. You can get bit, eye gouged, fish hook if you think your going to fight fair.

If you fight, fight dirty, biting is a huge asset when its time to grapple. THere so close to ya and its always right there . Bite the shit outa them, headbutt its all there.

But...I'd prefer to standup.

I disagree. Yeah, people can bite, fish hook, etc., if you go for a submission. But if you get mount or knee-on-stomach and start dropping bombs there is no way in hell they will be able to bite you. That is what I would use my BJJ for. I wouldn't try to break an arm or something (unless I was on my back and REALLY needed to), but I would prefer to just get on top and beat the shit out of the guy. And besides, if you do an armbar and he does bite you, just snap his fucking arm, he'll let loose real quick. I know I'd rather get teeth marks over a fucking broken elbow.

And next, I think people that fight dirty like that are pussies. Headbutting, kicking, kneeing, any of that shit is alright. But biting, scratching, eye gouging, and the worst, getting friends to jump in: I think all of those are for people that are pussies and can't fight. TAke your ass whooping like a man. me and my friends have all agreed that if one of us is getting our ass kicked, to let the shit go on. If it gets too bad, break it up. The only time i think it reasonable for friends to jump in is after your friend is already clearly beaten, and you tell the guy to stop, he just keeps pounding away. If I ever see that happen, i will jump in and whoop the shit out of the other guy, because there is a point where you should know to stop.

What I find funny about street fighting is that people always think the guy that is more popular will always win, even though it has jackshit to do with a fight. When I was In high school, even if the guy is a fucking pussy, people will always think a popular guy will beat the shit out of somebody that doesn't have as many friends. Or they think that since a guy can bench press 330 he can fight. Or a guy that weighs 260 can always fight. I have seen pussies that are popular, that are strong as hell, and pussies that are big. And i have seen people that are not popular, weak as hell, or really small that are badasses. People don't factor in aggression/meanness, which is really all that matters in a street fight. I would rather have a 5'6", 145 pound badass on my side than a fucking 6'5", 240 pound pussy, any day of the week.

 

[VampireMonk]

I think aggression = ability to back your talk
and really make an effort to make stuff happen your way.

now in a noob vs noob contest, this is all it takes.

when you put in some pros.
then agression isnt good enough, these guys KNOW they will step into
fight, they expect you to also, so they are so comfortable with that, they
can fight relaxed.

over aggresssive, can get your ass beat by a pro unless you just out gun him
SIGNIFICANTLY or the pro has made some HUGE error.

 

[TapouTime]

some rules i have learned in my expierences on the street as a purple belt in BJJ....
Arm bars on asphalt are much different than on the mat you realize quick when you use your head on the asphalt...
Who goes out drinking alone... not many people unless your a loser like me so when your fighting one person theres always somone lurking just keep that in mind you can still beat down someone and their friends might see this and be like damn i dont want to get involved with that shit
If your out numbered 3+ and your not Wanderli silva grab one person and give him the beating of his life because your gonna get yours
use knee on stomach its so quick and effective to the untrained person and you dont scrape up your knees
and if you dont know what you are doing in any situation just do it faster....
but in all seriousness avoid the street fight you never know what the mexican behind the dumpster has in his sock while your beating his cousin..

 

[ipponzei what]

You can also train arts that mitigate the advantages of weapons and multiple attackers. Just like BJJ, it is impossible for these arts to completely remove these advantages. However, they do mitigate them (just like BJJ mitigated size/strength enough for Royce to win in the early UFC).

Honestly, I think this is bullshit, for numerous reasons. #1, it is impossible to train against someone with a knife who is legitimately trying to stab you, unless you want to wind up stabbed numerous times. #2, it is even more impossible to train taking a gun from someone who is actually willing to fire a shot. If MMA has taught us anything, it's that when it comes to application, live training makes 100% difference.

If anything, teaching people "how to fight an armed opponent" instills people with a ridiculous, false sense of security. It creates guys who smack the rubber gun out of their training partner's hand in Krav Maga class and think, wrongly, that they have a similar chance of smacking a real gun out a real criminal's hand. More often than not, that is going to wind up with a shot Krav Maga student, not a disarmed criminal.

 

[Eric O]

A huge factor I think with going to the ground is all the foul play that can go on. You can get bit, eye gouged, fish hook if you think your going to fight fair.

If you fight, fight dirty, biting is a huge asset when its time to grapple. THere so close to ya and its always right there . Bite the shit outa them, headbutt its all there.

But...I'd prefer to standup.

None of the techniques you've mentions will do shit to me if you used them in a street fight. You'd better be one good eye gouger and make me blind in both eyes and even then I'd probably still be able to beat you down.

I work as a bouncer and badasss clubs in NY. I get into 1 to 2 full scale fight a week (not including scuffles, sucker punches, melees and multiple attacker situations).

I've had ppl bite me until I've blead, scratch me, grab my balls and do just about whatever they could think of at the moment to try and inflict pain and let me tell you it only adds to the beating that I give them.

Once adrenaline sets in stupid shit like that won't hurt. Even getting punched and loosing teeth doesn't hurt till after. But me putting someone in the RNC, kimura, hip toss to head plant on the pavement are all instant end of fights in most cases (I've had a few ppl on coke, meth and other shit that just wouldn't stop no matter what).

 

[Eric O]

Honestly, I think this is bullshit, for numerous reasons. #1, it is impossible to train against someone with a knife who is legitimately trying to stab you, unless you want to wind up stabbed numerous times. #2, it is even more impossible to train taking a gun from someone who is actually willing to fire a shot. If MMA has taught us anything, it's that when it comes to application, live training makes 100% difference.

If anything, teaching people "how to fight an armed opponent" instills people with a ridiculous, false sense of security. It creates guys who smack the rubber gun out of their training partner's hand in Krav Maga class and think, wrongly, that they have a similar chance of smacking a real gun out a real criminal's hand. More often than not, that is going to wind up with a shot Krav Maga student, not a disarmed criminal.

They train with makers and paintball guns and shit. Some training is better than no training.

I know some Kali guys that would fuck someone up if they had a knife. I've been doing MMA for a while and there's no way I would pull a knife out on certain ppl that had knife training.

I'd rather fight them hand to hand.

 

[triso]

Eric O. speaks the truth people.

Stop talking about "dirty" fighting. Everyone knows about the famed eye gouges, the grabbing of balls (the ghey), and biting bullshit, you really believe that is going to END a fight, or stop me from wrecking you while you are doing it?

Oh yeah, like I said, if you are in a fight, expect damage period. If your hoping that you dont scratch your knees and back on the pavement, you have no business fighting.

 

[Gavin LeFever]

if you knowningly enter into a street fight and do not have the "nastyness" in you to willingly gouge out the other man's eye ball, you need to stfu and stay home.

school fights were about getting the most hits in before the fight got stopped and you were the "winner." in my school, the football coaches were the school disciplinarians and they let the two fighting continue until they were finished unless it was too dangerous (blood, etc). if they kept going, the two fighting would be to exhausted to resist them when they dragged them off to holding rooms when it was over. but usually, the two would stop scared because at school, kids enter into fights knowing that if it got too bad, someone would stop it. this is not the case on the street.

a street fight is as close as most people will ever come to life-or-death situations. if you brawl with some random guy you dont know, expect a box cutter in your belly (my friend's friend got cutt at a party when he brawled some dude last year in jersey). at the very least, expect danage to the groin if you have any intention of grappling with someone. there are no rules, and if you're not thinking that it's serious just because you're having a random fight, the guy you're rolling with might be thinking something else.

no rules, multiple people, weapons, dirty fighting.. the best "self defense" is to not be retarded and avoid it. 5 dudes after you, i'm sure you'd be looking around for something sharp. your opponent is thinking a trained fighter is after him, he's looking for something sharp.

having the intention of going on the street is the first mistake. most arts try to teach how to prevent mistakes rather than defending them once you've screwed up. you can apply this to more than on the mat/ring/cage.

 

[Soulfly]

A good small thing to note with weapons and street fights.
Most of the time when people do get stabbed and slashed they didn't know the attacker even had a knife at the time. The best strategy to fight someone with is to assume that whenever you get into a fight they have a weapon in their hand. Slip the punch, arm drag, control the arm, etc. Just don't let it land and try to absorb it.