Story Time

[JohnPJones]

So as some may remember back when I was new one of my first threads I created was about the kansetsugeri, or side kick to the knee and why it wasn't really seen in MMA, because it was a favorite of mine. the oblique kick was mentioned, and a few people pointed to Silva's use and I eventually found a few other examples, but a few people said it wasn't used simply because it was so easy to simply side step out of the way...or some such.
Unfortunately can't find that thread now...

any way this morning before work i was sitting on the couch when this mindsmash video popped up in my recommended feed. love mindsmash as whole though most of his recent videos haven't caught my attention much...but this one did and it kept that attention.


apparently the sidekick to the knee really got popular in the last few years...back in the day i was loving the technique and using it in dojo spars and backyard fights. Now i wish i would have taught it to my fighter, but since i never saw it used anywhere else i figured it was against the rules, rather than i had some secret technique that simply hadn't been discovered by the mainstream of MMA yet...a humility im glad to see i had back then.

based off of the video though i find it funny how the 'risk' of such a kick is well known but people have no problem using it, then like to start crying when it's used on against them...

i feel pretty well vindicated now, i just hope we can see the continued evolution of MMA as a sport and the techniques that keep the 'meta' fresh

 

[DoctorTaco]

I’ll teach it and work it with guys (if I’m wearing my big fairtex leg pad it’s safe) but I always ask first if it’s something they are comfortable using in a fight. It’s about 50/50
On who will throw them and who won’t

 

[JohnPJones]

I’ll teach it and work it with guys (if I’m wearing my big fairtex leg pad it’s safe) but I always ask first if it’s something they are comfortable using in a fight. It’s about 50/50
On who will throw them and who won’t

ya i've never had an issue with it being dangerous in sparring as long as the person using it knows control (even in the dojo, my use of the technique was a bit of an anomoly, so i was typically the only one using it lol) and i have yet to see evidence of it being as devastating as people claim it is when they cry about it being used on them.

 

[JohnPJones]

still looking for evidence of a kick to the knee doing serious harm, and found the story of an indian fighter surbala laishram. all i can find is that she injured her and the ligaments in her knee, but nothing about how it was injured...though the injury was not so serious as to end the fight, and her decision to fight through the injury likely exacerbated it...

anyone familiar with a KOI promotion that was in bahrain in 2019 where it happened?

but i still can't find any serious injuries from kicks to the knee that have ended a fight let alone a career or put a career on long term hold.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

The people who complain about this kick, rarely know what they're talking about. Usually the discussion is 'they're career enders', you reply with 'they don't even end fights, never mind careers' then they reply with Miguel Torres getting blasted with one. Then you point out that Torres lost that fight on decision, not via kicks to the knee - then they move the goal posts to something else.

The reason you can't find any career enders from those kicks is because it hasn't happened, there might be an example if you look REALLY hard and it won't be high profile. There will always be 1 or 2 people who say 'Oh I know a guy who's career was ended by them' but it's just internet forum talk.

Another common bullshit complaint you here, especially on the various sherdog sub forums, is that you can't counter it. Which is nonsense, I was caught with one once, and it basically knocked me into my opposite stance. Then I adopted lateral movement and completely shut it down. Just watch Jones vs Gustafsson or LITERALLY ANY SAVATE FIGHT, where it's one of the most common kicks used. It's easy to counter and I'm forced to think that people either just don't want to learn, or are too incompetent to pull off basic defences.





If this thread goes on for a few more pages, I would be genuinely shocked if you didn't get responses from people repeating the same tired shit

 

[JohnPJones]

The people who complain about this kick, rarely know what they're talking about. Usually the discussion is 'they're career enders', you reply with 'they don't even end fights, never mind careers' then they reply with Miguel Torres getting blasted with one. Then you point out that Torres lost that fight on decision, not via kicks to the knee - then they move the goal posts to something else.

The reason you can't find any career enders from those kicks is because it hasn't happened, there might be an example if you look REALLY hard and it won't be high profile. There will always be 1 or 2 people who say 'Oh I know a guy who's career was ended by them' but it's just internet forum talk.

Another common bullshit complaint you here, especially on the various sherdog sub forums, is that you can't counter it. Which is nonsense, I was caught with one once, and it basically knocked me into my opposite stance. Then I adopted lateral movement and completely shut it down. Just watch Jones vs Gustafsson or LITERALLY ANY SAVATE FIGHT, where it's one of the most common kicks used. It's easy to counter and I'm forced to think that people either just don't want to learn, or are too incompetent to pull off basic defences.





If this thread goes on for a few more pages, I would be genuinely shocked if you didn't get responses from people repeating the same tired shit

lol i'm surprised it already hasn't gotten that same tired shit repeated.

the only evidence of a knee kick causing a serious injury i've found (because ya there will always be outliers just like you'll occasionally hear about a jab breaking someone's jaw, or a shin snapping when a leg kick is checked) is a video of an incompetent instructor blasting his stationary demonstration partner, and if that's the standard we're going by then might as well just shut down all striking combat sports...

i don't mind being proven wrong, and will look to prove myself wrong if it would actually benefit me to know that i'm wrong.

 

[DoctorTaco]

lol i'm surprised it already hasn't gotten that same tired shit repeated.

the only evidence of a knee kick causing a serious injury i've found (because ya there will always be outliers just like you'll occasionally hear about a jab breaking someone's jaw, or a shin snapping when a leg kick is checked) is a video of an incompetent instructor blasting his stationary demonstration partner, and if that's the standard we're going by then might as well just shut down all striking combat sports...

i don't mind being proven wrong, and will look to prove myself wrong if it would actually benefit me to know that i'm wrong.

rampage claims jones fucked his knees up and he had to get surgery, but take that with a big grain of salt

 

[JohnPJones]

rampage claims jones fucked his knees up and he had to get surgery, but take that with a big grain of salt

ya i've heard his claims, but if i'm not mistaken wasn't he having issues with his knees already before that fight?

 

[RightToBareKnuckles]

The people who complain about this kick, rarely know what they're talking about. Usually the discussion is 'they're career enders', you reply with 'they don't even end fights, never mind careers' then they reply with Miguel Torres getting blasted with one. Then you point out that Torres lost that fight on decision, not via kicks to the knee - then they move the goal posts to something else.

The reason you can't find any career enders from those kicks is because it hasn't happened, there might be an example if you look REALLY hard and it won't be high profile. There will always be 1 or 2 people who say 'Oh I know a guy who's career was ended by them' but it's just internet forum talk.

Another common bullshit complaint you here, especially on the various sherdog sub forums, is that you can't counter it. Which is nonsense, I was caught with one once, and it basically knocked me into my opposite stance. Then I adopted lateral movement and completely shut it down. Just watch Jones vs Gustafsson or LITERALLY ANY SAVATE FIGHT, where it's one of the most common kicks used. It's easy to counter and I'm forced to think that people either just don't want to learn, or are too incompetent to pull off basic defences.





If this thread goes on for a few more pages, I would be genuinely shocked if you didn't get responses from people repeating the same tired shit

wow, can't believe (and never knew) Miguel kept fighting after that kick! after a quick search only found clip, not a full video, but his record does have that fight as a decision loss. thanks for pointing that out. just shows how important it is not take things at face value.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

wow, can't believe (and never knew) Miguel kept fighting after that kick! after a quick search only found clip, not a full video, but his record does have that fight as a decision loss. thanks for pointing that out. just shows how important it is not take things at face value.

I did a double check, just in case I was wrong because there were media outlets that claimed the kick ended that fight. From what I can gather - it seems that the journalists didn't actually watch the fight, and instead reported on it as a TKO loss. This was in a small kickboxing promotion's debut show and this was well past Miguel Torres hey day when he was considered a name to beat.

I also wasn't able to find a full video of the fight that worked, I found a video that had thumb nails of the third round AFTER the knee injury, but it also didn't work. Aside from it being on his record as a decision loss - we do also have Jack Slack, who is pretty much the best when it comes to actual fight history who calls it a decision loss + cites that Torres knee was 'busted up' but doesn't actually say he was injured by it.

http://fightland.vice.com/blog/the-triumphs-and-tragedies-of-miguel-torres

I'm not going to say that he definitely wasn't injured by the kick - but I haven't actually been able to find a source saying he was injured - only people guessing on Sherdog, or media publications that clearly didn't watch the fight. What I can say is that Torres fought 5 months later - which implies to me that he didn't sustain a serious knee injury, given how long GSP was out for with his ACL injury.

It was a nasty kick to take, no doubt. It clearly hurt and I'm sure he was walking with a limp for a few weeks after - but this kick get's used to prop up a narrative that is completely make-believe