Stopping a Shot (Preventing a TD) with Strikes

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by SummerStriker, Oct 6, 2013.

  1. SummerStriker

    SummerStriker Black Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2012
    Messages:
    7,415
    Likes Received:
    1,705
    So, there was a (maybe real life) video posted in another thread about using a side step + palm strike to deflect a double leg TD attempt, and it reminded me of a technique I had personally been working on.

    With so many wrestler / boxers on this forum, I was hoping for some input.

    Here is the ninja video, which I love.



    Here is the more sophisticated boxing version of the first technique:



    About the boxing. I haven't wiki'd the guy teaching, so I don't know what his deal is. The video, and his explanation of the technique, strikes me as something he's been working over in his mind in theory but which he hasn't really put together yet.

    In this video, at 3:30, he describes a sort of step called the "flip." It is a sort of hop to the side with a rapid pivot.



    It is the flip that I think makes the counter strike to the shot functional.

    So here is the basic idea: when someone shoots on you, you perform the flip to the side and throw a short hook. I don't advocate throwing the left hook while moving to the right like in the second video, because the shot is too fast and I think that it negates some of the use of going to the side, driving the wrestler's weight into you.

    The idea would be to flip back at about a 45 degree angle and to the right while throwing a right hook. You could even try it twice in a row if you wanted, getting further and further to the side.

    A complete technique / partner drill would be to throw a jab. Your partner changes level. You drop to perform a body jab at his lowered face. He shoots. You break ground by flipping back and to the right while driving him off you with a right hook.

    This fulfills the basic idea that the best way to keep someone from charging you is to constantly turn him. The flip adds power to the hook. The flip moves you away from the wrestlers right hand in case he is really setting up an overhand right. The hook does damage and with the move to the side, will put you in a better position to conventionally defend the TD attempt, both because he is hurt and you have moved to the side a little.

    Cons to this technique:

    You have to move back to make time for the hit, giving up ring presence.

    You move closer to the wall.

    If backing up is a good option, you may have already been forced closer to the fence by his other movement.

    Anyone have any thoughts?

    For the record, I use this in real life sparring. I am not a fighter, just a martial artist.
     
  2. Grappleboxing

    Grappleboxing Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2013
    Messages:
    3,926
    Likes Received:
    262
    Hmm, so it is side stepping while striking to maximize the force you hit your opponent with? That is the feeling I'm getting since you mentioned the left hook and you pivot to the opposite side, having your opponent rush face first into a strike.

    On topic, that is an interesting concept, but I feel there are more effective, and devastasting strikes that could stop a shot.

    If you watch Thiago Alves's fights, you can see his takedown defense as an offensive. He knocked out Hughes and kneed Koscheck as they shot in for takedowns. He predicted their head location and maximized the potential of knees as a takedown deterrent. Try watching his fights with Hughes and Koscheck and you will see what I mean.
     
  3. EndlessCritic

    EndlessCritic Gold Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2013
    Messages:
    20,378
    Likes Received:
    13,128
    You're saying you love the ninja video ironically, or... ?
     
  4. SummerStriker

    SummerStriker Black Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2012
    Messages:
    7,415
    Likes Received:
    1,705
    Grappleboxing, there are more devistating strikes you can throw at someone going for a shot but:

    A strong knee or uppercut need time. The uppercut is a 2 count move. You could by time by jumping back, like with the flip, but that's not really the knock out hit.

    Knees are hard to throw any other way than rising forward.

    In either case, those moves are best when the shot comes from jab range or further.

    Another pro of the flip is that it is a one count motion, the flip no slower than the hook.

    Another downside of devistating ko attempts against the shot is that lots of wrestlers can endure them and finish. The flip gives space, and if the hook hits, more space on top, so that even after trying it you can still try a normal defense like sprawling.
     
  5. greenseeker

    greenseeker Green Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2010
    Messages:
    1,112
    Likes Received:
    141
    Right off the bat, one of the big problems I see with these videos is that they are relying on defending a shot that has not been set up. Big difference between defending a telegraphed shot from 5' away vs having someone change levels on you in the middle of a combo.

    As for the boxing video, yeah, landing that hook and pivoting seems like it's plausible. If you miss that hook, though, you're going down (even if you land the uppercut after). A proper sprawl seems much more reliable.
     
  6. Grappleboxing

    Grappleboxing Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2013
    Messages:
    3,926
    Likes Received:
    262
    Your technique is very good, even innovative considering the lack of footwork shown in mma today. After you counter their shot, you can continue the fight, but the threat of the takedown is still there if your opponent is still there. That is why I prefer knee strikes and meeting my opponent head on. Once you get the timing of your opponent's takedown, you can perfectly time and match your strike to your opponent's takedown and BAM!

    Your technique is sound, but it doesn't finish the question of what to do after. But your technique will work and it is an extremely interesting technique.
     
  7. BJJ_Rage

    BJJ_Rage Gold Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2007
    Messages:
    19,159
    Likes Received:
    4,509
    there are 1000 different techniques and every single art has its theory on how to aviod a double, you can listen to every single dude whos proposing his theory as an effective way, and they will even sound right, and some may be even convince you (well, not everyone, ninja dude, nop) but the reality is, if you try to strike to stop a td, 9/10 (just a number) you will end up taken down... do you think these MMA guys that are training with the best boxers, MT guys and wrestlers wouldnt know better if there was a better way to stop a double other than good old sprawl or wrestle back?

    thing is, the theory for stopping tds with strikes or maneuvers may be right, problem is the human body cant rect as fast as is needed to perform the move, is that simple. IF it was, aikido wouldve been the most lethal MA, by far.
     
  8. Title Fight Productions

    Title Fight Productions Steel Belt

    Joined:
    May 17, 2005
    Messages:
    28,601
    Likes Received:
    38
    Location:
    Down from day 1
    Well to "get the timing of your opponents takedown" before delivering your "BAM", you will need to have seen him shoot on you a couple times.......... How are you planning on getting back up after that first successful takedown?
     
  9. Title Fight Productions

    Title Fight Productions Steel Belt

    Joined:
    May 17, 2005
    Messages:
    28,601
    Likes Received:
    38
    Location:
    Down from day 1
    Well to "get the timing of your opponents takedown" before delivering your "BAM", you will need to have seen him shoot on you a couple times.......... How are you planning on getting back up after that first successful takedown?
     
  10. Title Fight Productions

    Title Fight Productions Steel Belt

    Joined:
    May 17, 2005
    Messages:
    28,601
    Likes Received:
    38
    Location:
    Down from day 1
    I have seen some very nice takedown D using great footwork, but I don't necissarily think striking needs tombe involved.
     
  11. callsignfuzzy

    callsignfuzzy White Belt

    Joined:
    May 21, 2013
    Messages:
    37
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm generally not a fan of trying to stop a shot in progress with strikes. If dude's already moving, he's probably too close for most strikes to be at their optimum range. I've even hit one of my best uppercuts ever on a guy who was moving in for a TD. Nailed him straight in the grill. Didn't even slow him down. In part, I think, because he had too much forward momentum to BE stopped.

    That said, here's an article you may want to read:

    http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2013/9/15/4734660/striking-against-a-grappler

    At the end of the day, you need to think about what a leg-diving fighter is actually trying to do. He's going to change levels and close the distance. He's going to want to be within arm's reach to begin with. He may set up his shot with strikes. And bear in mind that some of the best TD artists in MMA don't have the classical, collegiate penetration-knee-drop-step double-leg shot. In fact, the only guys who drop to a knee on a regular basis that I can recall are/were Sean Sherk and Rashad Evans. Some of the best TD artists in MMA pike at the hips, which is a much quicker motion and works better against a more upright, striking-oriented stance: Couture, Koscheck, and GSP immediately come to mind. That shot is going to be even harder to read.

    With that said, keep circling to the outside, because that takes away the angle needed for a good shot. Throw straight strikes, because they're naturally designed to drive the opponent away- the jab or cross to the chest/body in particular will discourage level-changing (to a degree, anyway) and, if executed correctly, will help you by keeping your own level low. Straight kicks to the leg may cause the opponent to naturally stand more upright, which will further hinder their own level-changing. Uppercuts and snap front kicks, if you can time them well, also present a threat to the level change, although from my own experience, I'm dubious about using them mid-shot. And most importantly, train actual grappling to stop TD's. Learn to sprawl, crossface, whizzer, dig for underhooks, spin out of the clinch, use the quarter-Nelson, hand-fight, everything. While I get that your personal goal is to identify what striking techniques and strategies hinder the TD, the fact is that if a guy gets in on you, and at some point someone will, it's too late to use strikes, and you'd better have some mechanically-efficient grappling/clinching tools of your own to use. After all, the guys who are best at defending takedowns are wrestlers. Partly because they do it all the time, of course, but partly because they have actual hundreds of years worth of techniques designed to stop 'em.

    On a side note, I'm glad you nixed the idea of using knees. When they work, they work beautifully, but they require impeccable timing, and most guys don't have that. I've seen far too many guys get dumped because they miss-timed a knee and were on one leg when their opponent connected with their hips.
     
  12. SummerStriker

    SummerStriker Black Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2012
    Messages:
    7,415
    Likes Received:
    1,705
    A picture is worth a thousand words. Maybe I'll try to film it this week.

    Thanks for the tips and try I'll read more into them this week.

    I do train grappling and have a lot of clinch fighting ability and basic wrestling from mma classes. This is a tack on move. Not a replacement to conventional TD defense.

    Like I said, I think I can still sprawl when I mess this up. The limiting factor is how much space behind me gets used up (a budget for a striker).
     
  13. pheonix5

    pheonix5 Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2007
    Messages:
    1,776
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    Dagobah
    You're first move should be change levels with him, when he drops his hips you drop yours and have a method to circle out. If he's an idiot trying to shoot in 5ft away, well you certainly have more options and he deserves to get hit. Footwork is your best option. I personally like Anderson's method

    [​IMG]
     
  14. Rod1

    Rod1 Titanium Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2010
    Messages:
    46,364
    Likes Received:
    32,293
    Location:
    Sonora, Mexico.
    As many more have mentioned, its impossible, if the defense takes say 10 units of time to be executed, and the attack has say 7 units of time, it will fail, even if you had the reflexes of a fly, you would still need to react before it happens, which is always hard.

    So as of now the sprawl is the best way to avoid getting taken down, because its fast, so you can actually have time to react + execute the defense before the attack is completed.

    Setting the pace with good footwork and striking does makes a takedown harder because it throws off the setup of the takedown so it takes longer to execute and you have more time to react.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.