Still doubt karate?

[spacetime]

Machida is Shotokan.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Did he just....?

Machida is Shotokan.

That's what he was responding to, asshat.

 

[spacetime]

Machida is also a black belt in BJJ as well as well as sumo training for takedown defence. Kinda helps.

 

[Tayski]

Hence the watering down of Muay Thai in america. Everyone wants to be a "beast" until its time to do what beasts do.

This is the main problem with today's generation. Even in Kyokushin, I've been told countless times that back in the 70's and 80's they used to train a lot harder and the conditioning was a lot more rough than now overall. This topic is covered in a lot of books. It used to be a seeding process to weed out the weak. It's still a bit the case today but not to the same extent at all.

That's because back in the 70's for instance you could get away with pushing people to their limits and introducing them to pain, the numbers would still come.

Today most people can't handle being pushed to their limits. When they get pushed a bit too much they simply try to find another training dojo or gym where it's easier and not as "hard", or they completely switch off to another sport or activity. This means that if gyms or dojos want to have enough students for it to be financially sustainable they have to turn down the intensity and toughness of the classes, and perhaps have a separate class for fighters.

I'd expect this situation to be even more the case in countries like the US as opposed to countries from Eastern Europe or Russia for instance, hence why there seems to be a lot of mcdojos and watered down gyms in the US.

 

[spacetime]

This is the main problem with today's generation. Even in Kyokushin, I've been told countless times that back in the 70's and 80's they used to train a lot harder and the conditioning was a lot more rough than now overall. This topic is covered in a lot of books. It used to be a seeding process to weed out the weak. It's still a bit the case today but not to the same extent at all.

That's because back in the 70's for instance you could get away with pushing people to their limits and introducing them to pain, the numbers would still come.

Today most people can't handle being pushed to their limits. When they get pushed a bit too much they simply try to find another training dojo or gym where it's easier and not as "hard", or they completely switch off to another sport or activity. This means that if gyms or dojos want to have enough students for it to be financially sustainable they have to turn down the intensity and toughness of the classes, and perhaps have a separate class for fighters.

I'd expect this situation to be even more the case in countries like the US as opposed to countries from Eastern Europe or Russia for instance, hence why there seems to be a lot of mcdojos and watered down gyms in the US.

Could you be more specific? What did they do in the past that current clubs won't?

 

[shincheckin]

This is the main problem with today's generation. Even in Kyokushin, I've been told countless times that back in the 70's and 80's they used to train a lot harder and the conditioning was a lot more rough than now overall. This topic is covered in a lot of books. It used to be a seeding process to weed out the weak. It's still a bit the case today but not to the same extent at all.

That's because back in the 70's for instance you could get away with pushing people to their limits and introducing them to pain, the numbers would still come.

Today most people can't handle being pushed to their limits. When they get pushed a bit too much they simply try to find another training dojo or gym where it's easier and not as "hard", or they completely switch off to another sport or activity. This means that if gyms or dojos want to have enough students for it to be financially sustainable they have to turn down the intensity and toughness of the classes, and perhaps have a separate class for fighters.

I'd expect this situation to be even more the case in countries like the US as opposed to countries from Eastern Europe or Russia for instance, hence why there seems to be a lot of mcdojos and watered down gyms in the US.

your exactly right dude. Now when you weed people out, it is weeding out your wallet! lol. 90% of a gyms customer base, are fitness people, and people that want to be able to tell people they train UFC. The type of peple that want to know spinning back kick before they can jab properly. Yet you need these douches in the gym to keep the lights on, and you need to keep them a member as well. I was just having a similar conversation with a gym owner yesterday.

 

[Christian Woodward]

This is the main problem with today's generation. Even in Kyokushin, I've been told countless times that back in the 70's and 80's they used to train a lot harder and the conditioning was a lot more rough than now overall. This topic is covered in a lot of books. It used to be a seeding process to weed out the weak. It's still a bit the case today but not to the same extent at all.

That's because back in the 70's for instance you could get away with pushing people to their limits and introducing them to pain, the numbers would still come.

Today most people can't handle being pushed to their limits. When they get pushed a bit too much they simply try to find another training dojo or gym where it's easier and not as "hard", or they completely switch off to another sport or activity. This means that if gyms or dojos want to have enough students for it to be financially sustainable they have to turn down the intensity and toughness of the classes, and perhaps have a separate class for fighters.

I'd expect this situation to be even more the case in countries like the US as opposed to countries from Eastern Europe or Russia for instance, hence why there seems to be a lot of mcdojos and watered down gyms in the US.

I cant speak of other Kyokushin dojos, but I would be surprised if my gym does little more than cover the cost for keeping the doors open and the electricity on. Yes we have children and they do get coddled but you don't want to beat the tar out of children, unless you want a bunch of disgruntled soccer (football) moms. But in the adult classes I see mostly former military like myself and cops. Also we see people who come from other countries who want "real" training i.e. a crazy Polish guy etc. If your gym is hardcore etc it will weed people out. Hell we have 16 year old kids who come to adult class and can take full force sterum shots bare knuckle, they say it hurts...but they keep fighting. Takes special people to train like that and honestly I don't want the art watered down.

The financial aspect makes it sad that a lot of people try cater to the masses but not all schools are the same. In 30 years of martial art training that I have done only 4 schools I have been in have been labeled hardcore. Those schools one was Muay Thai, one was boxing, Team quest in Oregon in the early 2000's and now this KK dojo. The thing with every single one of these school is they did cater only to people who wanted to further their fighting skills and test themselves. Three of the school listed the instructors had stables of fighters and they where paid that way, the fourth the instructor is a full time police officer and teach KK with street applications. The US yes we have watered down schools which sucks honestly since there are a bunch of special snowflakes who cry if they are pushed to sweating. But we do have our diamonds in the rough where if you cant hang with actually getting hit the door is right there and thank you for trying no harm no foul. OSU

 

[shinkyoku]

I never knew UFC 1 had a Kyokushin- champion but it did indeed!

Gerard Gordeau (8 time Dutch Kyokushin champ) got choked out in one minute and 44 seconds against Royce Gracie (who wasn't even near the best of the Gracies)

True. Gordeau was a local dutch champion (and having entered Savate tournaments had also made him a local Savate champion -which looked better on the UFC poster since they already had a karate guy listed) but never made it into the international top in kyokushin. In the 1987 World open he failed to go past the "last 32" mark. He lost vs Royce in the grand final of UFC 1 -back then it was a elimination tournament, and it was the fighters 3rd fight of the night. Gordea stepped into the cage vs Royce with 2 KO victories from that night (and a previous opponents tooth still embedded in his foot), with no grappling experience at all -and made it 1.44. Please remember that back then NOONE HAD HEARD of BJJ. The first UFC was basically commecial events to promote the style.

Whatever else you can say about Gordeau (and there are a lot to say. he does not have the best reputation) You got to give him credit for how he handled UFC 1. Sure a couple of years Judo Newaza practice would probably have helped. But hindsight is nice.

 

[eternaldarkness]

i heard gordeau was disbarred from kyokushin for gouging nakao's eye.

 

[ShinkanPo]

i heard gordeau was disbarred from kyokushin for gouging nakao's eye.

gordeau is such a piece of shit I heard that fuck is some kind of NeaNazi thug as well.

 

[Paradigm]

Machida is Shotokan.

Umm...

Could you be more specific? What did they do in the past that current clubs won't?

 

[shinkyoku]

i heard gordeau was disbarred from kyokushin for gouging nakao's eye.

No.He had already left kyokushin. At the time he was affiliated with World Oyama karate -a US based kyokushin offshoot. He may have been disbarred from them because of it, but I dont know.
Now ofcourse he runs half of the small dutch-based organization international budokai/Kyokushin Budo Kai (he was appointed the successor to Jon Bluming -then Gordeau cut Bluming off for using the organizations funds as his personal piggybank -and the organization split between them. Classy guys!)

 

[shinkyoku]

Old video that has made its rounds on the internet multiple times. It has been looked into several times.
The mentally challenged guy beaten upp, survived. A cop who had heard of the beating tried to get him to press charges, but he refused. The guy kicking his ass ended for life up in jail for running murders or whatever it was (cant remember). The guy running the dojo died as a criple due to diabetes related illness after also having spent some time in jail for drugs. Classy guys!

 

[j123]

the US tends to water down everything. Muay Thai included. Or how about these soccer mom TKD schools now saying they are MMA gyms? lol.

That's the free market

MMA and combat sports are in, so everything is slapping that tagline on. Hell, back in the 90s and 2000s TKD was in and MT gyms then were charging rec center boxing prices. Now its like finding a unicorn to have a place that charges less than $130-200 a month.

Not even marital arts related, at the local gym where I lift, they have programs saying MMA fighter's class. Its just a circuit with you wearing gloves and air punching at the end.

The best was this McDojo nearby my place, and technically they aren't wrong when they say they're MMA, just not in the sense we're all used to. Basically they had Aikido, Karate, Kung Fu, and kickboxing (cardio), and listed themselves as "Mixed Martial Arts"

 

[spacetime]

True. Gordeau was a local dutch champion (and having entered Savate tournaments had also made him a local Savate champion -which looked better on the UFC poster since they already had a karate guy listed) but never made it into the international top in kyokushin. In the 1987 World open he failed to go past the "last 32" mark. He lost vs Royce in the grand final of UFC 1 -back then it was a elimination tournament, and it was the fighters 3rd fight of the night. Gordea stepped into the cage vs Royce with 2 KO victories from that night (and a previous opponents tooth still embedded in his foot), with no grappling experience at all -and made it 1.44. Please remember that back then NOONE HAD HEARD of BJJ. The first UFC was basically commecial events to promote the style.

Whatever else you can say about Gordeau (and there are a lot to say. he does not have the best reputation) You got to give him credit for how he handled UFC 1. Sure a couple of years Judo Newaza practice would probably have helped. But hindsight is nice.

Wasn't the level of Dutch Kyokushin quite high? Holland produced some of the finest Kickboxers.

 

[shinkyoku]

Wasn't the level of Dutch Kyokushin quite high? Holland produced some of the finest Kickboxers.

Holland has only had one single guy place into the top 8 of a world tournament either before the split, or in all the top 3 kyokushin organizations afterwards. It was 1991, and he did not go on nto the top 4. Draw your own conclusions.
Except for 1987 and 1993 (when they dominated the medal lists), their appearance on european championship medal lists have been very sporadic. When Gordeau was active, he was a second tier fighter far behind Peter Smit and Michel Wedel and other of that generation (who was behind the domination in the 87 european championship).
Holland has never really been a dominant nation in kyokushin. They had some good fighters, but they were and are far from what they at times have been in kickboxing.

 

[Big Nasty Edison]

I was actually considering joining a karate school locally a while ago when my back was messed up (lumbar), which kept me from doing BJJ. I didn't pull the trigger though.

My thoracic spine is now giving me trouble so that idea of starting karate is rearing its head again. Just hard to give up one art for another (can't pay for both simultaneously).

Karate, across all its styles, is a fine discipline that has real fighting applicability.

 

[shincheckin]

Holland has only had one single guy place into the top 8 of a world tournament either before the split, or in all the top 3 kyokushin organizations afterwards. It was 1991, and he did not go on nto the top 4. Draw your own conclusions.
Except for 1987 and 1993 (when they dominated the medal lists), their appearance on european championship medal lists have been very sporadic. When Gordeau was active, he was a second tier fighter far behind Peter Smit and Michel Wedel and other of that generation (who was behind the domination in the 87 european championship).
Holland has never really been a dominant nation in kyokushin. They had some good fighters, but they were and are far from what they at times have been in kickboxing.

chakuriki gym was based off a combo of boxing and KK. but lets not entertain this guy.

 

[shinkyoku]

chakuriki gym was based off a combo of boxing and KK. but lets not entertain this guy.

Lots of dutch gyms was based on kyokushin. Most of them in fact. You have trouble finding dutch gyms from that period that DIDNT originate in kyokushin (and most later gyms descended from them). Many of them very successful in kickboxing and now legendary. But whatever influences they brought with them founding dutch kickboxing or dutch MT, they were never really a major force in kyokushin tournaments.

But, yeah. next topic.

 

[James Baller]

chakuriki gym was based off a combo of boxing and KK. but lets not entertain this guy.

Lots of dutch gyms was based on ass. Most of them in fact. You have trouble finding dutch gyms from that period that DIDNT originate in kyokushin (and most later gyms descended from them). Many of them very successful in kickboxing and now legendary. But whatever influences they brought with them founding dutch kickboxing or dutch MT, they were never really a major force in kyokushin tournaments.

But, yeah. next topic.