Starting to play butterfly

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by Bruce Calavera, Aug 3, 2010.

  1. Bruce Calavera

    Bruce Calavera Purple Belt

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    I'm trying to understand how this guard works and I already know the all too vague "It's used to do sweeps." My main concerns are retaining it and strategy. I feel like leaving my legs in that position for too long will easily result in a pass even with active hook pressure. Is the "trick" to making it work constantly threatening sweeps and back takes? I guess with any guard the trick is to always stay active, it just seems like most other guards allow a little room for hanging out. Any advice on this?
     
  2. Uchi Mata

    Uchi Mata Preaching the gospel of heel hooks and left kicks

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    I love the BF guard, but had (and sometimes continue to have) many of the same problems you mentioned. It seems that the main thing with BF is to have good control of your opponent's upper body at all times. Double underhooks work best. You also need to be sitting up at all times...if you get flattened you're screwed. Also, you usually aren't sitting flat...you tend to be sitting more on one side or the other, which makes it harder to flatten you. I would also note that being able to transition quickly to x-guard or a good half guard is important.
     
  3. rarmonio8920

    rarmonio8920 Purple Belt

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    I agree with everything in this post.

    Also to the TC, it's true of any open-type guard. You can't really hang out in the open-type guards for an extended amount of time because your opponent will eventually work the pass. All it takes is that one quick adjustment and he's passed your legs into side control.
     
  4. slothofdoom

    slothofdoom White Belt

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    work hard for at least one underhook at all times, develop a good arm drag for when he backs off to grab your ankles/pants, learn how to sit back up when he flattens you out.

    edit* oh and dont let him put your knees together.............ever
    edit* and dont let him pin your foot to your butt.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2010
  5. Bruce Calavera

    Bruce Calavera Purple Belt

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    Any thoughts on having one or two hooks in. I usually see one hook but then I see Marcelo and...
     
  6. slothofdoom

    slothofdoom White Belt

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    one hook isnt better or worse just different.
     
  7. Gordinho

    Gordinho Green Belt

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    I have no clue how to play hook guard, but damn all those upclass guys play it.

    You can see from their ears who play what :)
     
  8. Noskill

    Noskill Created Monkey

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    My advice on this:

    1) Prepare to flow in and out of halfguard. Often, when people try to pass your butterfly guard, you end up in halfguard.

    2) The upside to this is that halfguard is one of the best places you can get the required upper body control to transition to a good butterfly guard.

    - Get the underhook in halfguard, shrimp out and insert butterfly hook. Then go for the classic butterfly sweep right away, as you have dominant control there and your opponent, if he has half a brain, will fight to turn the stakes.

    - Another good option in transitioning from half to butterfly is when you secure a kimura in halfguard which you can't either finish or sweep with. Insert a butterfly hook and sweep from there.

    3) Learn some basic X-guard. This is a strong option from butterfly and half butterly. When people deny you the upper body control you need to play regular butterfly, see whether you can grab under one of their legs. From there, setup the X-guard.

    4) The armdrag and the underhook play well off each other:

    - Go for the armdrag. IF he pulls back his arm to prevent the arm-drag, insert your underhook on this side (putting the other hand on the ground and scooting to this side helps to insert it deep enough). People don't expect this.

    - If you have the underhook and he pummels in to get it back, you can grab his wrist with your other hand and go right to the armdrag. This is timing-dependent, but it works well once you get the hang of it.
     
  9. redaxe

    redaxe Silver Belt

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    I often try to pull butterfly guard in training to practice it, but my partner just immediately stands up almost every time. I asked my instructor what to do about that. He said "just switch to a different guard." Oh, ok. But how do I practice my butterfly guard then?
     
  10. SuperSuperRambo

    SuperSuperRambo Senior Moderator Senior Moderator

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    I can totally feel where you're coming from. When I was a white belt I only used closed guard, and without it I was lost. As a blue belt, I started trying my butterfly guard. For a long time it sucked. I couldn't do anything, and I didn't feel comfortable maintaining guard. Eventually that started to change.

    My advice: keep at it. Focus on defending/maintaining your butterfly guard for starters. It's kind of backwards in a way, which makes it hard. In closed guard, to prevent someone from passing to your right, you defend with your right leg. In butterfly you defend with your left. That takes some work to get used to. Focus on never getting flattened. Back on the mat = bad.

    Once you get the hang of that, start focusing on your grips: both establishing your own and breaking those of your opponent. Then you can start attacking with sweeps. Start with the basics: sumi gaeshi (hook sweep?), arm drag, that sort of thing. And once you get that down, you can start getting fancy and chaining things together.

    If you follow that advice, I think you are on your way to a strong butterfly guard.



    Oh, one more thing. Learn how to pass it. This will help you learn how to defend the passes and learn what your opponent is doing to you. Also roll with guys who have a good butterfly guard. My instructor has an incredible butterfly guard gi and no gi, and I have learned immensely just by him sweeping me time and time again. If there is a higher belt that plays butterfly, roll with that person and pay attention!
     
  11. SuperSuperRambo

    SuperSuperRambo Senior Moderator Senior Moderator

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    Typically throughout the course of a roll, you will alternate between both, depending on your opponent's movements and what attacks you use.
     
  12. WuKillaBee

    WuKillaBee Blue Belt

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    I've been trying butterfly guard for a while and i always get my foot stuck when i go for the triangle...do i have to just hip out more. It feels like when i do hip out i can just omaplata or even facedown arm bar easier Instead of triange...
     
  13. SuperSuperRambo

    SuperSuperRambo Senior Moderator Senior Moderator

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    I think we're talking about different things. I would never go for a triangle from butterfly guard.
     
  14. redaxe

    redaxe Silver Belt

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    Why not? I think the triangle is a good option when you have overhook control.
     
  15. SuperSuperRambo

    SuperSuperRambo Senior Moderator Senior Moderator

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    I suppose, but I wouldn't do it from traditional butterfly. You have to remove the hooks before you go for it. If you switch the leg on the overhook side to a foot-on-hip and do it off a failed sweep, then it's a good attack. But it sounded like this guy was describing it as a first attack from a basic butterfly guard, which I wouldn't do. I would maybe use a triangle as a transition.
     
  16. Jagcorps_esq

    Jagcorps_esq Red Belt

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    All I know about the butterfly guard is how I work to neutralize it.

    I get my head lower, so it seems to me that you should keep your head lower to counter my counter.

    I control the hips so that they can not create space to remain seated rather than flat....so avoid any hip control and maintain spacing.

    I try to load up two on one on a hook....so learn some re-guarding techniques (Aesopian did a whole video about this once.)



    When I go two on one, this is the position they are fighting against here.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2010
  17. WuKillaBee

    WuKillaBee Blue Belt

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    I usually only try it when i have over/under hooks on arms after a failed sweep like you said..I just have trouble bringing the lower leg up and around..I get smashed and then can't figure 4 the legs or i get my bottom leg stuck under them
     
  18. WuKillaBee

    WuKillaBee Blue Belt

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    either way i still suck at butterfly :( I really wanna learn it though
     
  19. thegreenblender

    thegreenblender Brown Belt

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    One small thing that has helped me, is that I don't view it as a guard that you can solely focus on for periods of time anymore. With closed guard, you can reasonably sit there and set up your game for a little while. Halfguard also to an extent. With butterfly guard, if you aren't threatening or sweeping, you're probably getting passed. Also, instead of being all like, "Yah, let's assume the posture, establish my grips and get set, and then we'll play some butterfly guard"....it's like a guy said earlier in the thread, it's way easier to get your grips ready to go from closed or half, then as you enter butterfly guard you are in great attacking position. I don't really have much luck if the guy is just sitting in front of me in open guard and I try to "pull" butterfly guard.
     
  20. MUFC

    MUFC Brown Belt

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    Any taller/lankier guys have trouble playing butterfly guard?
     

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