SS: How long?

[James Fuller]

Which some Sherdoggers avoid as they don't like answering Noob questions. To say nothing of the fact that this question would be one among many in the Noob Thread. I posted a new Thread because I wanted feedback from the largest group possible about this specific question.

If you don't approve of the Thread, simply don't click on it.

Yeah, this. its like bjj though we dont train the basics enough.Plus I have realized that alot of these questions I and others have shat on for being too specific to be asked generally are best served with people coming at them from such varied genetic makeups, training schedules and athletic needs. Lots of different strategies all based around a similar ideology (lift heavy pussy) is best for figuring out what works best.

 

[Arpie]

Smaller weight jumps and microloading can help, review your diet and recovery. Get in some active recovery and try to reduce stress. Thats about it really, there will come a point when squating hard 3x a week and deadlifting hard once don't mix.

Off-topic: As a program after SS, which is the best (FAQ 3-day split, 5/3/1 or practical programming) for someone that dosen't have much time?

 

[Tosa]

Thats about it really, there will come a point when squating hard 3x a week and deadlifting hard once don't mix.

Depends on how you train. A complete beginner following novice Sheiko methods will squat twice, and deadlift once. Later, there'll often be a second round of squats and deadlifts. I.e. squatting 2-4 times a week, and pull 1-2 times a week. An advanced powerlifter (Ie. elite total) squat 2-4 times a week, and pull 2-4 times a week.

 

[pliftkl]

Off-topic: As a program after SS, which is the best (FAQ 3-day split, 5/3/1 or practical programming) for someone that dosen't have much time?

3 day 5/3/1 with no or minimal assistance lifts is probably your shortest time in the gym. Come in, do your main exercise, go home.

 

[rckvl]

An advanced powerlifter (Ie. elite total) squat 2-4 times a week, and pull 2-4 times a week.

But as I'm sure you know they manipulate intensity and volume to do this.

 

[ozzie]

On SS you deadlift 2 times a week on the ABA week.

 

[Tosa]

But as I'm sure you know they manipulate intensity and volume to do this.

Yes. The programming is more complicated than with starting strength. And some workouts may be easier...but I still think it's fair to say it's generally squatting hard, and pulling hard 2-4 times a week. In other words, depending upon training methods, the frequency with which a lift is trained, may go up as a lifter becomes more advanced.

 

[ExtremeStandard]

I've read of people going up to year and a half, it really depends how quickly you increase you weight because I mean if you go up quickly because you feel confident with you weights you'll eventually hit a max more quickly. At some point a program change could be anything (periodization, percentage change, rep scheme change, lift changes, etc).

 

[rckvl]

Yes. The programming is more complicated than with starting strength. And some workouts may be easier...but I still think it's fair to say it's generally squatting hard, and pulling hard 2-4 times a week. In other words, depending upon training methods, the frequency with which a lift is trained, may go up as a lifter becomes more advanced.

True, but it often is different variations of the lift, or partials of the lift. Though not always.

 

[Tosa]

True, but it often is different variations of the lift, or partials of the lift. Though not always.

It can be (and is with deadlifts). I think one the reasons I don't feel the fatigue or soreness some people describe getting from Sheiko is that I regularly use variations. That said, some people don't use the variations for squat or bench. I think more important the use of variations of lifts is a solid GPP base...something the Russians know a thing or two about (understatement).

The point is that the frequency with which a movement is trained, either with the movement itself, or variants, doesn't necessarily decrease, and can very well increase, as someone becomes a more advanced lifter.

This is obvious when looking at Olympic lifting training. With powerlifting it isn't as common, and the approach needs to be modified (to a degree, I've heard Sheiko described as Olympic lifting training applied to powerlifting). Another example is the Korte 3x3, which has the lifter squat, bench and dead 3x a week each (I haven't tried it, although it I think Sheiko by far better). In terms of personal experience, many lifters at the gym I go to train lifts with higher frequency, from 4 days a week alternating squat, bench and squat deadlift workouts, to squat. bench, dead twice a week plus olympic lift, press, front squat twice a week...so if you count front squats and olympic lifts as squats and pulls thats squatting and pulling 4x a week each (although he drops olympic lifts when he peaks for a meet).

This isn't to say that training lifts with that frequency is necessary, or necessarily beneficial for a particular individual. But it certainly does work very well for many people...so it's absolutely wrong to assume that as you get stronger you have to train lifts less frequently.

 

[KnightTemplar]

3 day 5/3/1 with no or minimal assistance lifts is probably your shortest time in the gym. Come in, do your main exercise, go home.

Or as Wendler himself calls it the, I'm Not Doing Jack Shit method.:icon_chee

 

[Arpie]

I don't know enough about Sheiko or Oly lifting to comment, the comment about squatting 3x and deadlifting 1x was for the average-joe running the SS program. Life gets in the way sometimes, the average joe may or may not be using his full potential because of suboptimal diet etc etc.

I guess the length of SS could depend on just how much weight you are willing/able to gain. If you wanted to go from 120 lbs to 200 you'd stall alot less than someone going from 170 to 180 (for whatever reason).

Think I might pick up the 5/3/1 book.

 

[Tosa]

I don't know enough about Sheiko or Oly lifting to comment, the comment about squatting 3x and deadlifting 1x was for the average-joe running the SS program.

This has everything to do with SS being based on linear progression, and not using any sort of periodization, lacking variation with the loading, exercises, volume etc. It isn't a flaw in the program, it's targetted at beginners who don't need and/or don't know how to make use of those things. But there's a limit to how far you can go with before you need to incorporate periodization and variation (in intensity, volume, exercises). In other words, it's not so much an issue of squatting hard 3x a week, and deadlifting hard 1-2x not working anymore, as how those exercises are programmed not working anymore. At which point you're done with starting strength.

A next step could easily be a Bill Starr 5x5, Texas Method or a sheiko routine (perhaps the Dave Bates version, #29, or #39). Sheiko has already been mentioned, but both TM and Bill Starr have squats 3x a week (although the middle day is lighter or lower stress), and can have pulls 3x a week...although again the middle day is lighter, and in the case of Bill Starr, at least some of the pulling is power cleans.

 

[KnightTemplar]

This has everything to do with SS being based on linear progression, and not using any sort of periodization, lacking variation with the loading, exercises, volume etc. It isn't a flaw in the program, it's targetted at beginners who don't need and/or don't know how to make use of those things. But there's a limit to how far you can go with before you need to incorporate periodization and variation (in intensity, volume, exercises). In other words, it's not so much an issue of squatting hard 3x a week, and deadlifting hard 1-2x not working anymore, as how those exercises are programmed not working anymore. At which point you're done with starting strength.

A next step could easily be a Bill Starr 5x5, Texas Method or a sheiko routine (perhaps the Dave Bates version, #29, or #39). Sheiko has already been mentioned, but both TM and Bill Starr have squats 3x a week (although the middle day is lighter or lower stress), and can have pulls 3x a week...although again the middle day is lighter, and in the case of Bill Starr, at least some of the pulling is power cleans.

Why not 5/3/1 Tosa?

 

[Tosa]

Why not 5/3/1 Tosa?

I was listing routines with higher frequencies of squats and pulling, as examples of how getting stronger/more advanced routines doesn't necessarily mean training movements less often. Another example, albeit an extreme one, would be a very advanced sheiko routine, where a lifter might squat 4x a week, deadlift 4x a week, and bench 5x a week.

Although with the 5/3/1 if you did a squat assistance on deadlift day, and deadlift assistance on squat day, you could be doing squats and deads 2x a week each (assuming your squat and DL assistance is squat and DL variants). Wendler prefers it the other way (ie. squat assistance on squat day, deadlift assistance on deadlift day), but it's not like it has to be that way.

 

[Arpie]

^ Thanks for the info Tosa, much appreciated. Probably 5/3/1 is the next step for me, only because its very flexible in terms of programming, something I need.

Back on topic: Its up you TS, when you feel that you just can't recover fast enough (and you're missing reps consistently) and you've checked out the other things (diet etc). Then its probably time to move on.

 

[SMillard]

It's on my Christmas list, dude, along with Iron Man 2 and the latest Jack Reacher novel.:icon_chee

there is a sale on Practical Programing at the startingstrength website, 20% off, I was going to wait till Christmas but for 20% I couldn't pass on that.

 

[Long Dark Blues]

I ran SS for two years. And then switched to Wendler's 5/3/1 three months ago.

EDIT: the first year on SS I was doing Japanese Jujutsu and Judo as well. The second year I just focused on lifting. I stalled three times when running SS. It wasn't until I got into BJJ 11 months ago that I stalled the third time, but instead of just missing reps I wasn't even able to lift at the weights. My squat started to slide back a lot. My max squat was 400 lbs. x 3 before starting BJJ, after starting BJJ I could only squat 350 lbs. once.