Squatting

[yookfarb]

Well, since I mentioned paralysis by analysis, and you replied, evidently part of this is to me. My first response would be to ask you to justify your straw-man argument.



My second response would be to ask you to support this. I would then offer numerous videos from around the internet of people who still lift like shit. Example: crosffit, some morons from various bodybuilding sites, and some "powerlifters" who have never competed for some reason, usually revolving around "not lifting enough."

Furthermore, if you are watching yourself squat in the mirror, your focus is off. I would not make fun of someone like this, I would correct them.

And saying they care more is a load of shit. I have video-taped exactly one squat in my life. My first meet was in 1981. If my life ever gets under control, I am going to compete again. I have never watched myself squat in the mirror, etc. So I suppose I do not care enough, even though in addition to my own training I have trained more than 1500 athletes.

Your comment was just plain stupid.




Nice logical fallacy of bifurcation / false dichotomy. Not even worth responding to.

Honestly, I was referring to mostly Jim Wendler's video not to you or anyone in here in particular who I believe mean well.

My point wasn't that people who do mirror squats are doing it right or that people who don't video tape their squats don't take their training seriously. Quite the opposite, my point was that people like Wendler that are encouraging kids to just go to the gym and figure it out for themselves without using any resources are setting a really bad example for the general public. They don't realize that not everyone in there is an experienced intelligent athlete with good coaching experiences in the weight room.

Countless times it seems we hear about the dime a dozen stories from powerlifters or weightlifters who were gym bros to start out and then only discovered the world of serious training from someone who took them under their wing. For a lot of people today, that mentor is the internet and that buy it's very nature is going to create a lot of quirky individuals who obsess over form because they don't have anyone to rely on but themselves, but we shouldn't chastise them for it. Yet it seems to me that Wendler and a lot of people of the older generation seem to be implying that they'd be better off being the gym bros that they used to be. What kind of an example is that?

 

[Cratos]

I think, at one point, we all suffered from "paralysis by analysis". IMO, it's part of being new. New at anything, not just lifting.

That being said, it's important to grow out of that stage and just get the work done. I think some people neglect/miss that part.

 

[Denoginizer]

Jim goes to the extreme, a little, but it's not hard to learn how to lift from books/YouTube tutorials.

If it hurts, don't do it. Film yourself, go home after the gym, figure out why it was hurting, make improvements next time so that it doesn't hurt.

I agree, and I'm not going to do something that hurts just because I saw it in a youtube video. But something small like your elbow position could lead to elbow pain over time and not necessarily acute pain or injury. I felt that Jim's response was using an umbrella solution of "Don't do what hurts" much too liberally. He's also looking back with the huge benefit of hindsight. People always say that they wouldn't have done it any other way, but come on, I'm a little over 1 year into my lifting career and there's a TON of things I should have done better. It doesn't do me any good to realize that "Oh, I should have started that beginner program with lighter weights" when I'm not a beginner anymore.

I don't really see enough 'serious' lifters at my gym. My training partner and I are constantly talking form and looking up resources to perfect it, but also very focused on putting weight on the bar. I didn't even deload when I switched from high-bar to low-bar.

Ya know a lot of people like to talk about "paralysis by analysis" and "forgetting to fucking lift", but to me it seems like a justification to make fun of annoying bright eyed lifters who ask a lot of questions to meatheads that either don't know or can't articulate the answers.

More often than not, the people who are bringing their workout logs, cameras, belts, other useless stupid shit, and doing a million warm up squats in the mirror analyzing their form are the ones who make the most dramatic transformations and make the most progress. They simply care more and it's clear that their training is something they take seriously in and out of the gym, eventually they'll figure it out.

Meanwhile that other dude who does sloppy 225lb half squats and leg press to failure on his first day and every day after that is more often than not the one who is spinning his wheels and getting nowhere and doesn't really seem to care.

Great points, but you forgot about the chalk and wraps!

So yeah, I don't think being critical of form and working hard are mutually exclusive, but there are clearly more experienced people here who have seen more lifters than I. To be fair, not I will be ready once I meet some people suffering from paralysis by analysis.

 

[Cratos]

Honestly, I was referring to mostly Jim Wendler's video not to you or anyone in here in particular who I believe mean well.

My point wasn't that people who do mirror squats are doing it right or that people who don't video tape their squats don't take their training seriously. Quite the opposite, my point was that people like Wendler that are encouraging kids to just go to the gym and figure it out for themselves without using any resources are setting a really bad example for the general public. They don't realize that not everyone in there is an experienced intelligent athlete with good coaching experiences in the weight room.

Countless times it seems we hear about the dime a dozen stories from powerlifters or weightlifters who were gym bros to start out and then only discovered the world of serious training from someone who took them under their wing. For a lot of people today, that mentor is the internet and that buy it's very nature is going to create a lot of quirky individuals who obsess over form because they don't have anyone to rely on but themselves, but we shouldn't chastise them for it. Yet it seems to me that Wendler and a lot of people of the older generation seem to be implying that they'd be better off being the gym bros that they used to be. What kind of an example is that?

I was going to reply, but I think we're just completing our first go round of the circle, at this point.

 

[Oblivian]

Honestly, I was referring to mostly Jim Wendler's video not to you or anyone in here in particular who I believe mean well.

My point wasn't that people who do mirror squats are doing it right or that people who don't video tape their squats don't take their training seriously. Quite the opposite, my point was that people like Wendler that are encouraging kids to just go to the gym and figure it out for themselves without using any resources are setting a really bad example for the general public. They don't realize that not everyone in there is an experienced intelligent athlete with good coaching experiences in the weight room.

Countless times it seems we hear about the dime a dozen stories from powerlifters or weightlifters who were gym bros to start out and then only discovered the world of serious training from someone who took them under their wing. For a lot of people today, that mentor is the internet and that buy it's very nature is going to create a lot of quirky individuals who obsess over form because they don't have anyone to rely on but themselves, but we shouldn't chastise them for it. Yet it seems to me that Wendler and a lot of people of the older generation seem to be implying that they'd be better off being the gym bros that they used to be. What kind of an example is that?

My interpretation of the video was different than yours. Obviously he's in the industry teaching lifting online now, so he's not saying it isn't useful. What there is now is information overload, conflicting ideas, and flat out wrong information. You'll have people think there is one special way to do it, and they waste so much time trying to find this special way through the internet. That time would be much better spent sticking to the basics and figuring it out through trial and error.

You'll see this shit all of the time in other areas too. People do it with training, but it's almost more ridiculous with diet. Gaining weight and losing weight really isn't complicated, but a lot of people make it way too complicated. It goes to many other things in life as well. I have a gambling thread on here, and I don't know how many times people have messaged me as if I follow some magic formula and there is always discussion on theory. It's really not that complicated - figure out a strategy that makes you $ and go with it. There isn't a magic formula out there.

 

[LegioTitan]

Subtle Tosa call-out thread??

That was my initial thought.

But then... subtle =/= Cartos.

Some valid points in here.

 

[dinpappa]

This thread has touched on two of my favorite topics, but admittedly, I've probably been guilty of both to a certain degree at one time or another.

-People who go to ridiculous lengths to find some bullshit science or magical research that will give them the optimum results. They'd be better off just working in the gym rather than playing with their beakers

-People that make up new categories to somehow justify their weakness. A2G squats is one. Beltless is the other. And oddball BW lifts. If you can go really deep squatting, that's fine, but don't let trying to add an extra couple inches excuse your #'s not improving. The beltless one is always funny. Here's a clue - chances are, if you improve your belted squat, your beltless squat will go up as well. In fact, I'm guessing you can improve your beltless squat just as fast, if not faster, by not neglecting belted squats. BW lifts have their place, but it's just funny to me to see people who take Never Gymless and other BW books to the extreme despite having access to weights as well. Never Gymless was designed to help people who don't have access to weights, not to neglect all of the tools at your disposal that help make you stronger and better conditioned. Yet you have people that want to try to specialize in that area to compensate for their lack in other areas.

/oldmanrant

Agreed! Good post!

 

[Cratos]

Subtle Tosa call-out thread??

That was my initial thought.

But then... subtle =/= Cartos.

Some valid points in here.

Not in the least. Why would I waste time with a thread calling Tosa out?

I saw a few posts recently discussing/asking questions about elbows during the squat and decided to make a thread.

I'm happy with the discussion it has produced.

 

[NurseKnuckles]

It has defintely brought attention to some bigger issues, too.

 

[Denoginizer]

You'll see this shit all of the time in other areas too. People do it with training, but it's almost more ridiculous with diet. Gaining weight and losing weight really isn't complicated, but a lot of people make it way too complicated. It goes to many other things in life as well.

Great point, I think it is absolutely more ridiculous with diet! People want the magic pill or the perfect balance of clean foods, macros, supplements and meal timings. With the exception of serious athletes and medical conditions, people really just need to keep it simple and stick to a plan.

 

[Eric Brown]

Honestly, I was referring to mostly Jim Wendler's video not to you or anyone in here in particular who I believe mean well.

My point wasn't that people who do mirror squats are doing it right or that people who don't video tape their squats don't take their training seriously. Quite the opposite, my point was that people like Wendler that are encouraging kids to just go to the gym and figure it out for themselves without using any resources are setting a really bad example for the general public. They don't realize that not everyone in there is an experienced intelligent athlete with good coaching experiences in the weight room.

Once upon a time, no one was an experienced lifter. The revolving barbell is less than 100 years old. People do have the ability to accomplish things on their own. Sure, most fail, but that is usually through lack of critical analysis, not resources. Jim's point was that most people need to learn how to think. Which also does not occur during paralysis by analysis.

And do you seriously think that Wendler does not realize that everyone is not an experienced athlete with good coaching? How can you even type something that asinine?

Countless times it seems we hear about the dime a dozen stories from powerlifters or weightlifters who were gym bros to start out and then only discovered the world of serious training from someone who took them under their wing. For a lot of people today, that mentor is the internet and that buy it's very nature is going to create a lot of quirky individuals who obsess over form because they don't have anyone to rely on but themselves, but we shouldn't chastise them for it. Yet it seems to me that Wendler and a lot of people of the older generation seem to be implying that they'd be better off being the gym bros that they used to be. What kind of an example is that?

Then people need to spend less time on the fucking internet. (yes, I realize I am posting, but I am working from home today, so eat it.) No one is saying you have to be a "gym bro" so kindly do not bullshit anybody. People are saying you do not need to obsess over little details and instead simply focus on the basics (bar tight, head up, chest high, back flat or slightly arched and get below parallel without doing anything stupid). This shit is really not all that hard, as children do it naturally.

People spend too much time dicking around and not enough time both working hard and learning to direct their focus where it should be.

 

[Denoginizer]

And saying they care more is a load of shit. I have video-taped exactly one squat in my life. My first meet was in 1981. If my life ever gets under control, I am going to compete again. I have never watched myself squat in the mirror, etc. So I suppose I do not care enough, even though in addition to my own training I have trained more than 1500 athletes.

Eric, I can understand that if someone is a tactile or auditory learner, they will probably benefit more from cues than video. I am wondering if you found benefit to filming your clients/athletes to give them the visual feedback?

 

[Donut62]

Once upon a time, no one was an experienced lifter. The revolving barbell is less than 100 years old. People do have the ability to accomplish things on their own. Sure, most fail, but that is usually through lack of critical analysis, not resources. Jim's point was that most people need to learn how to think. Which also does not occur during paralysis by analysis.

And do you seriously think that Wendler does not realize that everyone is not an experienced athlete with good coaching? How can you even type something that asinine?




Then people need to spend less time on the fucking internet. (yes, I realize I am posting, but I am working from home today, so eat it.) No one is saying you have to be a "gym bro" so kindly do not bullshit anybody. People are saying you do not need to obsess over little details and instead simply focus on the basics (bar tight, head up, chest high, back flat or slightly arched and get below parallel without doing anything stupid). This shit is really not all that hard, as children do it naturally.

People spend too much time dicking around and not enough time both working hard and learning to direct their focus where it should be.

People are fucking hopeless. If they really think lifting is hard you've never done a real sport.

 

[Eric Brown]

People are fucking hopeless. If they really think lifting is hard you've never done a real sport.

Pretty much.

 

[Eric Brown]

Eric, I can understand that if someone is a tactile or auditory learner, they will probably benefit more from cues than video. I am wondering if you found benefit to filming your clients/athletes to give them the visual feedback?

Some, yes.

Mostly the ones who do not listen worth a shit.




(back inna' day we didn't have no damn video cameras. Every time we did something wrong, we were beaten with a bar. We did this while squatting uphill, both ways, no hat, no coat, no shoes and chased by timber wolves. And we were THANKFUL!!!!!)

 

[NurseKnuckles]

Some, yes.

Mostly the ones who do not listen worth a shit.




(back inna' day we didn't have no damn video cameras. Every time we did something wrong, we were beaten with a bar. We did this while squatting uphill, both ways, no hat, no coat, no shoes and chased by timber wolves. And we were THANKFUL!!!!!)

Squatting down hill ? Nice. You had to forge your own bars every session too, right?

 

[Eric Brown]

Squatting down hill ? Nice. You had to forge your own bars every session too, right?

Bitch, please, we had to shit them. We ate nails as a pre-workout supplement.

 

[NurseKnuckles]

Dear god, I hope there was another method to making the plates...

 

[miaou]

lulz. I always laugh when I see a squat labeled as ATG.

ATG is a term weak lifters use to justify their light weights, when they should be occupied with just getting stronger.

 

[toonie]