Sport vs. self defense....is there a difference?

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by salsation1, Oct 29, 2010.

  1. salsation1

    salsation1 Guest

    Hi,
    I went to a BJJ class for the first time ever to see what a class was like and the mentality behind it. I have absolutely no ground game or experience and am not a fan of grappling but DO understand that if you don't want you ass on the ground you better know how to get and beat someone on the ground to understand the how and why of it all. Anyway, this is what I saw and my thoughts on it.

    While the technique of the less than 6 month students was impressive, I'm not totally sold on the Jiu-jitsu thing. In a sport environment I think it is indespensible. In a street environment I'm not sold on it. Saw a large number of times when the groin, eyes and throat were totally unprotected in the guard. As an example, they were practicing getting out of someones Half guard. The technique involved (as I understood it) putting weight on the bottom persons shoulders to keep them down. Bringing the leg on the outside of their guard up to use your foot to loosen up the guard while pushing up with the other leg and slipping it through the guard. Like I said I was impressed by how well the newer students were able to perform the technique. That said my first thought when I saw the position was stick my finger in his eye causing him to turn the face to protect the organ and if jabbed in there with enough malice causing the hands to go up to protect the face and eye sight. (note I said jab the finger in there and not scrap or rub it.) That takes the attention away from you posturing up to slam hard punches or hammer fists to the groin multiple times. In that amount of pain, leg lock, arm bar, choke or just gettnig out of the guard stomping on his head and running away would seem pretty easy.

    So this led me to ask the instructor if the jiu-jitsu taught was mainly taught for sport competition where you aren't worried about the scenario I described or if itwas also taught for self-defense where you'd have to protect against that kind of attack. Can the BJJ guys on here give me some insight? Please note I am not knocking competition, sport, BJJ, grappling or any other negative thing. I am simply a person observing something and asking questions so that I can formulate an intelligent opinion which may lead me to practice BJJ or walk away from it.

    Oh and I wanted to add that I have heard and read the statements, If you can't practice it full steam ahead there is no point in doing it. I see some truth to that but then again, you can't practice breaking someone's arm, you either do or don't. You bring yourself to that point by doing the arm bar. You CAN tap someone on a cup (not sure I'm volunteering for that one) or wear eye protection to make the eye a realistic target.

    Lastly, please keep it positive. No BJJ is crap or calling me a troll. I'm someone who wants to get back into martial arts who is doing a one month trial at one facility and is thinking about doing a month at a local MMA facility. So I have a ton of questions. Thanks in advance for your insight and and help.
     
  2. Balto

    Balto Silver Belt

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    Ask the instructor spar with you allowing dirty moves like that. Obviously you need to simulate some of that stuff for safety as you talked about.

    After you are done, be honest with yourself and evaluate whether or not your dirty moves would have worked as well as you thought. Then you will know the answer to your question.
     
  3. teamcarvalho

    teamcarvalho Green Belt

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    Dude stand by for all the smart as remarks.....I suggest you look up old posts on this website.
     
  4. fourfif**

    fourfif** Banned Banned

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    If you are good at BJJ you wll undoubtedly be more than a match for the majority of the untrained population in a 1v1 scenario, period. Get good at takedowns as well and you are not to be fucked with in the meen streetz!!1. Srsly tho, make sure you're competent on your feet and there's no question you will be able to handle yourself. That being said if you are good and still manage to get yourself in a tussle, you're probably doing something wrong in general. Stay away from dumb shit. That's the ultimate self defense.
     
  5. BIGthingsSON

    BIGthingsSON Blue Belt

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    I feel there should always be a beginner instructional on some basic techniques for a street situation b4 heading into a full blown class. In the end though that just isn't common.

    Honestly though , once you've been doing BJJ long enough you'll realize it doesn't take much to destroy the avg joe. Basic things like underhook are lost on guyz in the street. You don't need a black belt to take someone down ,mount, smack em a bit, let em turn and choke em out. Half guard and all that other shit goes out the window when your facing some1 who knows absolutely NOTHING.


    I would never break someone's arm btw , so I wouldn't even put myself in that position. Just choke em and keep it moving, no need to maul the guy.
     
  6. salsation1

    salsation1 Guest

    To be honest b/c of my total lack of experience, I doubt it'd be hard to get me in an Arm bar or something. I guess what I was trying to say is are there programs that still teach Jiu-jitsu but incorporating these types of attacks? So me in this scenario would have the training to not be submitted quickly but instead of trying to gain a position or something going right for the vital points. Am I making sense? No ground game vs BJJ I'm betting on BJJ. But both attacker and defender with similar knowledge of BJJ incorporating that do anything to survive as fast as possible mentality (ie "dirty" fighting). Is THAT part of BJJ being trained for self defense and if so does anyone train it that way anymore? I mean it's pretty safe to say a groin shot works since even with cups on fights are paused for accidental groin shots.

    I guess I could ask to be taught the defense that was taught in that class and then ask if I can use dity tactics in the same scenario then see what works fastest and easiest. Hmm. Good advice. In your opinion, would an instructor be offended at such a request? Not trying to piss anyone off. I just want to make sure that in a worse case scenario, my ass makes it home to my kids. Thanks again for the response.
     
  7. futang17

    futang17 Green Belt

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    smart troll is still a troll
     
  8. salsation1

    salsation1 Guest

    I guess I'm being paranoid in a world where MMA is getting bigger and bigger. You'll eventually get asses out there with no discipline that have a good BJJ background and realistically I could be awesome on my feet but trip or do some other accidental thing that lands me on the ground. I'm not much concerned about the know nothing thug but about the thug with BJJ or the like. I do like the option of choking them out though. Less legal mess if it came that.
     
  9. HardEight

    HardEight Blue Belt

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    It doesn't take long in Jiu Jitsu to be able to handle yourself against average joe who knows nothing. After that you are training ways to beat opponents who know Jiu Jitsu. A black belt who can crush other blackbelts, just imagine how bad he could maul some goon on the street who doesn't know anything about the ground game.
     
  10. HardEight

    HardEight Blue Belt

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    That's the beauty of BJJ.
    To truly get good at it you have to have a good work ethic and be humble and put in lots of training time.
    Most of the guys who have the dbag attitudes don't make it a month because they don't like getting tapped by whitebelts half their size.
     
  11. Balto

    Balto Silver Belt

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    It depends on how you bring up the request and who your instructor is. I would not be offended if you were sincere, but then again I'm a JKD guy so I love testing these kinds of things.

    There are people who do train this way, although it's not too common. Groups like the Dog Brothers come to mind. Although they have roots more in Kali than BJJ, they do a lot of "anything goes" type of sparring that includes ground grappling with weapons, dirty moves, etc.
     
  12. salsation1

    salsation1 Guest

    Sorry asking people in the know a question offends you. I assure you I am not a Troll and have nothing but respect for the expertise of BJJ practitioners. My name is Ricardo Marquez from New Jersey. I'm 7 years removed from practicing Wing Chun and Capoeira. I have 11 yr old and 11 month old daughters. Kung fu is cool, but I don't have faith it's getting me home at night in an ever increasingly violent world. So I want to make sure that when I invest my time to learn something that it is really going to help me achieve my goals.

    I am currently doing a month at a Krav maga place and while I like the attitude I feel the time taken on technique could be better. As such seeing that Krav incorporates jiu-jitsu and Muay thai I decided that training with experts in those forms instead may make a bigger difference. Since my only knowledge of Jiu jitsu is what I see in MMA and the one class I attended I decided to ask questions instead of making uneducated decisions. Perhaps others should do the same.

    To all others that have provided answers to me, thank you. You show the respect of real Martial artists, Athletes and human beings trying to educate others on something they love. Your instructors should be proud of you and your representation of BJJ.
     
  13. salsation1

    salsation1 Guest

    I love that kind of attitude. I feel best with teachers that allow a student to question and experiment. I think this helps teacher and student alike. I don't get why people get offended b/c they are questioned. Anyways, thank you for your insight. I may in fact decide to approach the instructor in a respectful way to see if they would indulge me. I guess if they don't, it's probably not the place I want to be at anyway.
     
  14. cooltoon999

    cooltoon999 Orange Belt

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    Dude there are going to be some moves that are totally not applicable to self defence. IE. spider guard, etc. By practicing sport bjj youre essentially training against people actively resisting sweeps and submissions. An untrained person will never know what to do, and I know this for a fact, and by training against people better than you, you can hit those moves so much more smoothly.

    It's like argueing if a boxer wouldn't do well in the streets because he practices slips and boxing footwork, he still has been training to dodge punches against opponents who want to bash his face in, and has been training to bash other faces in giving him experiance in accuracy/technique.
     
  15. BIGthingsSON

    BIGthingsSON Blue Belt

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    Most if not all thugs can't stick to BJJ. Honestly I've brought in many a friend to my BJJ class, the one with the egos always head out first. I honestly could never see someone who knew BJJ getting into a fight with another who had the same knowledge. It would probably end up with ," Hey , who do you train under."
     
  16. Hamsterdam

    Hamsterdam Orange Belt

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    A few responses, no overarching theme.
    1. You won't be able to see how little your tricks help until you've actually rolled with a skilled partner. A high caliber player will be able to call out submissions and give you a step-by-step of what s/he is going to do and you still won't be able to stop it.
    2. BJJ isn't all about fighting off your back. Unless someone blindsides you, you should be trained to prevent the takedown and get your own.
    3. It's not too hard to sweep an untrained assailant without exposing yourself. You can pretty much hold them and roll.
    4. You've got dirty tricks as well. Some gyms do teach them, a lot will at least teach how to defend them. Also, high school should have taught you how to hit someone in the balls. There's an art to eye gouging, but sticking your finger in will certainly work.
    5. It's been proven to be effective in vale tudo, that should help with some of your concerns. I'm glad groin shots, headbutts, etc. are gone, but BJJ worked even with them (In fact, Royce Gracie used headbutts quite a bit).
     
  17. salsation1

    salsation1 Guest

    Point taken. I've seen boxers get attacked by multiple opponents at once and come out on top with their skill, so I see what you mean. So the point isn't which moves taught are applicable to a street scenario but the training to overcome a resisting opponent and get used to that constant resistance. Ok, I get that. And now I must look up what a spider guard is...:)
     
  18. bjornvil

    bjornvil Blue Belt

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    Honestly... if you are just thinking about being able to defend yourself and your family, just get a gun. They are legal to have and carry in the US... right?

    But doing any martial art which incorporates full contact sparring (e.g. Muay Thai, Boxing, BJJ, Judo) should be enough to get you ready for any self defense scenario which doesn't involve a weapon.

    Then there's always the 100m sprint...

    [YT]tZ2-tF4odBY[/YT]

    :icon_chee
     
  19. salsation1

    salsation1 Guest

    points 3-5 is what I wanted to know. Using thedirty stuff is easy if you train your mind to go that far. It's the defending those things I wanted to know about. Thank you.
     
  20. cooltoon999

    cooltoon999 Orange Belt

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    What? I can't understand the complexity of moving your body forward at a fast pace. Please make more videos good sir.
     

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