Law Soon to be head of ATF at Waco and Ruby Ridge and Lied about Waco

RerouteToRemain said:
If you read the history behind Ruby Ridge it is beyond ridiculous. He may have not been the greatest person but he was entrapped, attempted to be blackmailed, the atf lied horribly on the charges, he was told the wrong court date, etc.
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Ultimately though the burden was on randy to comply. Even if he had no idea, he must comply.
 
Ichibanner said:
The FBI Helicopter pilot requested disconnect from audio recording at one point. The FBI lied and stated that NO tear gas or other possibly incendiary devices were used, Janet Reno stated as much at the time based on info given to her by the FBI. They had no recourse but to backtrack on that assertion upon investigation. The FBI did not us LEO style "crowd dispersal" teargas cannisters.

They used Military M651 grenades which are metal and have an internal fuse capable of igniting combustibles, especially fuel and fuel vapor. Texas Rangers attempted to access an evidence storage facility and review Waco Siege evidence but were barred by Federal Agents. A Federal Judge had to step in, allowing Rangers access. The Rangers looked for a spent grenade round that was photographed at the Waco site in 1993. It could not be found. The evidence "disappeared itself".

Could Davidians have set the blaze? Yes, of course. With the ATF and FBI obfuscating the investigation and wholesale lying about their tactics and what happened, I refuse to automatically jump to that conclusion. Add in the Helo pilot not wanting to be recorded and the missing M651 Tear Gas grenade and I refuse to believe the "Official" narrative. Having the guy that led the Ruby Ridge fiasco running the show further makes me skeptical about the amount of force used and how forthcoming the ATF and FBI have been.
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Three fires started simultaneously at the compound. There is audio of the Davidians collecting/dumping fuel and lighting it.

Audio from the compound.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.da...ng-prophecy-of-their-doomsday/?outputType=amp








In any case, according to the Davidians, it was God’s will.

“Louis Alaniz, a non-Davidian who sneaked into the compound after the siege began, says he's leaving to warn the FBI not to attack. Steve Schneider, Koresh's lieutenant, says no believer leaves or does anything else unless Koresh tells them to, and he will be lost if he leaves. "They can't destroy us unless it's God's will. Haven't you read Joel 2 and Isaiah 13, where it says he's gonna take us up like flames of fire? I trust in God." Alaniz leaves.”
 
evergreenrider said:
Ultimately though the burden was on randy to comply. Even if he had no idea, he must comply.
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Guy was a POS but when you shoot the dog and the wife and then choose to go with the it’s Randy’s fault fuck Weaver and fuck you too.
 
woodguyatl said:
So is it your position that the Feds intended to kill children like the shooter at Sandy Hook?

All the reports I’ve read say the Davidians started the fires.

Maybe we Can agree that when police storm a building and kill innocent unarmed women (Davidians or Breona Taylor) they should be held accountable? In both cases there was no rush to enter and the men were armed and the women were not.
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The atf started the fire by firing grenades into the compound which started a fire
 
Not surprised. Harris is a cop and Biden is rightwing.

Same shit happened with some of the people who beat Rodney King IIRC. I believe a few went on to get promotions.

I'm old enough to remember this shit when it happened
 
Btw where's the blue lives matter people at? I know some of you outraged gotta be thin blue liners. We're all for authoritarianism and extrajudicial activity right? What gives? Is ideological consistency a thing or nah?
 
Lord Coke said:
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/1999/08/wac1-a27.html

FBI admitted using incendiary grenades
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And the Davidians were recorded dumping fuel around and getting ready to start fires. I’m not defending the Feds. They shouldn’t gave used that style of of tear gas grenade but three different fires started at the same time so not all were started by tear gas grenades. The Davidians wanted the fires to happen if the FBI raided the compound.
 
deviake said:
Btw where's the blue lives matter people at? I know some of you outraged gotta be thin blue liners. We're all for authoritarianism and extrajudicial activity right? What gives? Is ideological consistency a thing or nah?
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Blue lives people are still here. Backing decent human beings who go about performing the duties of a largely thankless job doesn't mean people excuse the assholes. If you're one of the "one bad apple spoils the bunch" crowd so be it. Have fun trying to enjoy anything in life that shitty people are attached to. Did you give up on MMA when the first, second, or third domestic abuser was brought to light? Do you expect others to for some reason?

Humans are individuals and many try to view and judge them as such. This is despite people like LEO being part of a larger group that is deserving of scrutiny or quite possibly condemnation as the ATF and FBI are in these cases.
 
woodguyatl said:
Three fires started simultaneously at the compound. There is audio of the Davidians collecting/dumping fuel and lighting it.

Audio from the compound.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dallasnews.com/news/crime/2018/04/18/how-the-branch-davidians-set-the-fires-for-a-self-fulfilling-prophecy-of-their-doomsday/?outputType=amp

In any case, according to the Davidians, it was God’s will.
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You are focused on the fires to the point that it appears that the rest of this fiasco doesn't matter much to you.

Cliffs: ATF / FBI demonize the Davidians. Use military force against them in order to overtake the compound and secure "illegal" weapons. Many civilians are killed along with LEO personnel. FBI lies and states they did not use pyrotechnic devices. FBI lies in an FOI lawsuit and states that they do not have radio traffic recording of the final 6 hours of the siege. The DOD expended 1 Million USD in support of Waco. Janet Reno of the Justice Department declared that the FBI lied to her.

Again, if you have your mind made up and are focused on Davidians setting their compound ablaze that's fine. You're missing the bigger picture of our nation's police force using military might and backing to engage what were, up until that time, peaceful civilians. You don't address Koresh and his followers by believing that they are a cult of armed crazies then cut access to electricity, water, food, and contact with the outside world expecting a sane and rational response. That is doubly so when you conduct psyops / sleep depravation against them.

Koresh and his people where nuts IMO. He was an asshole. Still, a peaceful and measured action was needed in dealing with him and possible illegal activities within the compound. That obviously didn't happen and a national police force the likes of which our founding fathers could not comprehend descended upon Koresh and his followers, bringing military arms and tactics against formerly peaceful US Civilians. That's my take away.
 
Ichibanner said:
Blue lives people are still here. Backing decent human beings who go about performing the duties of a largely thankless job doesn't mean people excuse the assholes. If you're one of the "one bad apple spoils the bunch" crowd so be it. Have fun trying to enjoy anything in life that shitty people are attached to. Did you give up on MMA when the first, second, or third domestic abuser was brought to light? Do you expect others to for some reason?

Humans are individuals and many try to view and judge them as such. This is despite people like LEO being part of a larger group that is deserving of scrutiny or quite possibly condemnation as the ATF and FBI are in these cases.
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Blue lives matter is a troll of black lives matter. Police chose to be police and a large portion of the criticism of the institution of policing is valid and didn't form out of a vortex. I don't for a moment believe "blue lives matter" was created in good faith. They're also unique in that they carry guns and can detain people so they're understandably held to a high standard. That's not remotely comparable to a minority of the population who has suffered every imaginable human rights abuse and indignity this side of Nazi Germany (who took inspiration from Jim Crowe laws btw, isn't that fucking wonderful) and until only very recently could be openly and legally discriminated against, and the police upheld the state's laws that oppressed them and in some areas the police were originally slave patrols (makes the term "patrolman" have a different ring, eh?). Once they were sorta on paper "free" they continued to get the middle finger from the country that benefitted from their labor while getting no restitution.

With the police, we're speaking of an institution, your comparison to MMA isn't relevant on any level. That doesn't mean every cop is a piece of shit nor that they do nothing good for communities, any reasonable person even if they disagree with the institution (on whatever level) would agree that there's good cops that do good work. I don't know what percentage of police are "bad apples" but clearly enough to be a problem and to question the structure of the institution, particularly in the US.

To use your apple analogy, I'm sure that depends on department among other factors. If you have an apple that is rotten (or more than one) or the way you store them causes rot and you're aware of this and little changes... that's a problem. A problem with a badge and a gun.

In any event, my rambles aside, there's probably good FBI and ATF agents - where's their movements? What colors should be associated with them? Feel me?
 
evergreenrider said:
Ultimately though the burden was on randy to comply. Even if he had no idea, he must comply.
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They shot his son in the back. They murdered his unarmed wife by shooting her in the face. It's on him to comply with the
deviake said:
Blue lives matter is a troll of black lives matter. Police chose to be police and a large portion of the criticism of the institution of policing is valid and didn't form out of a vortex. I don't for a moment believe "blue lives matter" was created in good faith. They're also unique in that they carry guns and can detain people so they're understandably held to a high standard. That's not remotely comparable to a minority of the population who has suffered every imaginable human rights abuse and indignity this side of Nazi Germany (who took inspiration from Jim Crowe laws btw, isn't that fucking wonderful) and until only very recently could be openly and legally discriminated against, and the police upheld the state's laws that oppressed them and in some areas the police were originally slave patrols (makes the term "patrolman" have a different ring, eh?). Once they were sorta on paper "free" they continued to get the middle finger from the country that benefitted from their labor while getting no restitution.

With the police, we're speaking of an institution, your comparison to MMA isn't relevant on any level. That doesn't mean every cop is a piece of shit nor that they do nothing good for communities, any reasonable person even if they disagree with the institution (on whatever level) would agree that there's good cops that do good work. I don't know what percentage of police are "bad apples" but clearly enough to be a problem and to question the structure of the institution, particularly in the US.

To use your apple analogy, I'm sure that depends on department among other factors. If you have an apple that is rotten (or more than one) or the way you store them causes rot and you're aware of this and little changes... that's a problem. A problem with a badge and a gun.

In any event, my rambles aside, there's probably good FBI and ATF agents - where's their movements? What colors should be associated with them? Feel me?
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My MMA analogy was to point out that people will tune in to MMA after some random fighter beats the shit out of a woman because that one fighter doesn't represent the UFC or MMA as a whole. But, it's pretty normal to hear "f*ck pigs" after some highly politicized police action comes to light as if one Derek Chauvin or such is indicative of the "Institution" as a whole.

The "Institution" can change and can be made better. I can't disagree with this. But, so can the people on the other side. I don't interact with Police. It's largely my choice. No drugs on my person or in my body. No stolen firearms within my possession. I don't drink and drive. I don't have a felony arrest record. I see many people calling for Police to change after every publicized event but don't see many people asking the purported "victims" to try and do better. It's puzzling. I chalk it up to people not expecting much from them which is pretty sad.

Do you want ATF and FBI agents to represented by a color? Go ahead, start the movement then. The "Thin Blue Line" existed before BLM. Many decades before. I've never been a part of it, can't tell you what it encompasses. I have had shitty interactions with LEO and positive interactions. Some people are shitty, some are not.

If we want to focus on problems among those with a badge and a gun I'm fine with that. But, it seems foolish to have micro focus on something like that while not addressing the 774 homicides in Chicago in 2020 or even the "measly" 335 in Baltimore. That's over 1,000 Americans dead in just two cities in a single year. Predominantly Black cities. Majority Black victims. Majority Black perpetrators. That's the modern Victim / Victimizer dynamic. Not Jim Crow, not the KKK, not some dead Democrat Senator that filibustered a Civil Rights Act.

When is it time to have a serious talk about this violence and death? After we get over "Blue Lives Matter", the Chauvin trial, or whatever other thing people are upset about or maybe when BLM acts as if it's a legit concern? I won't hold my breath because I know the murders are a way of life for those living in that culture and an inconvenient truth for those who act as leaders within the culture.
 
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