Sonny Liston vs Deontay Wilder

[Sinister]

Foreman was 19 years-old and it was sparring. That's not an actual fight. And I'm not UNconvinced that Wilder is truly one of the hardest hitting heavyweights ever to put on gloves. Now sure probably a thousand people would poo poo me for saying that, but given his background, lack of refinement in the Amateurs and was still knocking people out...I think that's what we're witnessing. But romanticism is strong. Rose-colored glasses and all that.

I'm not a believer in the phantom punch, but yes Liston was definitely hurt by speed, and that's another thing...Wilder's hand speed isnt slow by ahy stretch of the imagination

 

[Badr Hari]

Wilder is the man right now and I think he will be undisputed in 2020 (after unification with Ruiz). However I am not crazy to compare him with Liston because there's levels of boxing tactics and teachings that have been lost in this art in the last few decades. No romanticism at all. Tapes of fights from that era are filled with traps and tricks and are fucking quantum mechanics for the matches we see nowadays.

 

[borntoloseNOT]

Wilder is the man right now and I think he will be undisputed in 2020 (after unification with Ruiz). However I am not crazy to compare him with Liston because there's levels of boxing tactics and teachings that have been lost in this art in the last few decades. No romanticism at all. Tapes of fights from that era are filled with traps and tricks and are fucking quantum mechanics for the matches we see nowadays.

It's how I feel as well. I'm sorry, not trying to shit all over Wilder's competition, but he didn't detonate that bomb right hand until late in the fight vs many guys who shouldn't have even have been in the ring with him. I thought Fury fight was drawish, but most believe he got destroyed in that fight. Same argument you could use that ref coulda stopped fight vs Fury on 2nd KD, you could argue a ref stopping fight by TKO vs Ortiz when Ortiz had Wilder in bad trouble. My point is Wilder's right hand has bailed him out but he's also gone many many rounds looking foolish or not able to get an overmatched opponent out of there. Sonny is not a man you can keep in that ring and hope a right hand can bail you out. He has tremendous power as well, ability to smother Wilder's reach, has a longer reach and a celebrated jab from hell. Wilder isn't stronger either, and I actually don't believe he's "NBA level" athlete, which is kinda a stupid way to look at things anyway. Dudes who play BBall or football don't strike me as fighters, and would be different men if they had fought in the hurt game. In no way is Wilder more an athlete than Sonny, maybe gifted with a crazy frame and powerful right, but Sonny had a gift his own and was stronger. I still believe Wilder never gets right hand off, and goes out on shield inside 4. Can't see Wilder doing much at all in this fight except trying to muscle ref around after he gets TKOd.

 

[Yacob]

I actually don't believe he's "NBA level" athlete

He's the size of an average shooting guard or small forward

He has nba center athleticism at best....


Nba players are a different category of human

 

[borntoloseNOT]

He's the size of an average shooting guard or small forward

He has nba center athleticism at best....


Nba players are a different category of human

Boxing isn't basketball, and unless their handspeed equals somehow RJJ speed because they are another category of human, Id say they should stay in their category and leave the fighting to the fighters.

 

[Yacob]

Boxing isn't basketball, and unless their handspeed equals somehow RJJ speed because they are another category of human, Id say they should stay in their category and leave the fighting to the fighters.

Yeah i agree it's dumb to compare but Wilder actually was a basketball player and he was a severely undersized post player at a low level of college ball.

So the nba caliber athlete crowd you referred to doesn't know shit about basketball is what im saying

 

[DeJulez]

He's the size of an average shooting guard or small forward

He has nba center athleticism at best....


Nba players are a different category of human

Most shooting guard are 6'3-6'6.
6'7-6'9 Small Forward.
6'9-6'11 Power Forward
6'10+ Center
Point guards 5'11-6'4
Which makes Magic Johnson so grest that he was a PG at 6'9.
Bigger than Lebron and Deontay.

 

[aries]

I'd go with Liston. Ortiz was very close and who thinks Liston was worse than Ortiz? Prime Liston would have finished off Wilder when he had him hurt not failed like ancient Ortiz did.

 

[Sinister]

Wilder is the man right now and I think he will be undisputed in 2020 (after unification with Ruiz). However I am not crazy to compare him with Liston because there's levels of boxing tactics and teachings that have been lost in this art in the last few decades. No romanticism at all. Tapes of fights from that era are filled with traps and tricks and are fucking quantum mechanics for the matches we see nowadays.

Eh, it just amazes me how sure people are that they're NOT seeing that with Wilder. This post basically insinuates he doesnt know how to box (contrary evidence that he managed to floor Stiverne hard in a fight where he was going backwards primarily, and that despite getting out-boxed for long spells he managed to stay with Fury and knock him OUT, miracle recovery notwithstanding).

His style is unorthodox but if you think he put EVERYONE hes ever been in the ring with down by accident or just by virtue of having a punch and athleticism, you're mistaken.

 

[Sinister]

P.S. - I hope everyone who is saying Liston comically overmatches Wilder has actually watched FULL fights of Liston's and not just highlights. Hope you know who he struggled with and why, because it seems there's a level of familiarity with Wilder's career and I'd be surprised if people criticizing fights where Wilder had hiccups could name 3 Liston opponents who weren't Ali and Patterson without boxrec.

 

[pakimahi]

The windmill mow down, would be too much for Liston.

 

[JudoJabs]

Eh, it just amazes me how sure people are that they're NOT seeing that with Wilder. This post basically insinuates he doesnt know how to box (contrary evidence that he managed to floor Stiverne hard in a fight where he was going backwards primarily, and that despite getting out-boxed for long spells he managed to stay with Fury and knock him OUT, miracle recovery notwithstanding).

His style is unorthodox but if you think he put EVERYONE hes ever been in the ring with down by accident or just by virtue of having a punch and athleticism, you're mistaken.

I couldn't have said this better myself. If you've ever seen him train, he knows what he's doing. He knows how to set up his right hand, and it's all he needs. He knows how to position himself for it, and how to set it up perfectly, off of different angles.

Wilder's fight IQ is OFF THE CHARTS, considering his technique is definitely not up there. It literally HAS to be in order for him to a pretty much perfect KO record.

It's crazy that people think he's just all power. I'll make this comparison.

(A) There are guys in the NBA that know how to PLAY and are extremely talented when it comes to dunking. These are your hall of famers, and guys that have went on to become all time greats.

(B) There are guys NOT in the NBA that DON'T know how to play but are better than the best dunkers in the NBA at dunking. These are guys that haven't made the league, but end up on And1 tapes or Youtube clips for only their dunking ability (so they've never made it to the NBA, because they couldn't play..just dunk)

By saying Deontay Wilder only has a right hand, you are putting him in the second category (b)......... which is literally impossible!!!!...as he has proven time after time he knows how to win at the elite level, and will most likely go down as an all time great.

The bottom line is, he can fight/box, whatever you want to call it. It might not be traditional, but he knows how to box. Just how there are guys in the NBA hall of fame that have unorthodox or non traditional styles. Would anyone question that they can't play, or couldn't play due to their unorthodox style? No. They put up numbers and won at the elite level.

Look at a guy like Dominik Hasek (former 6 time NHL goalie of the year and NHL hall of famer). Would anyone question his ability to goal tend? He literally invented a new style in a modern era where it was told you shouldn't goal-tend the way he did. He did anything it took to stop the puck, it looked weird, it looked like he wasn't talented or was just "fluking" it off..but after a while (6 goalie of the year awards later......) you realize there's a method to the madness.

Wilder puts up numbers (highest KO percentage in history) and wins at the elite level.

What more do people want?

 

[Sinister]

Hes also knocked quite a few people out with well-placed, albeit wildly thrown, left hooks. Hes more than just a right hand.

 

[PUO3]

Hes also knocked quite a few people out with well-placed, albeit wildly thrown, left hooks. Hes more than just a right hand.

I think the Spzilka KO is the most impressive punch hes ever thrown. That thing was beautiful.

 

[AnthonyCasso]

Deontay puts away any all time great I can think of. He's 6'7 and has an 83 inch. Deontay sets his footing and tactics for maximum torque. Believe it or not , but his punching techniques are very similar to Jack Dempseys. I don't know if anyone has made a comparison ?

 

[borntoloseNOT]

Eh, it just amazes me how sure people are that they're NOT seeing that with Wilder. This post basically insinuates he doesnt know how to box (contrary evidence that he managed to floor Stiverne hard in a fight where he was going backwards primarily, and that despite getting out-boxed for long spells he managed to stay with Fury and knock him OUT, miracle recovery notwithstanding).

His style is unorthodox but if you think he put EVERYONE hes ever been in the ring with down by accident or just by virtue of having a punch and athleticism, you're mistaken.

Well, no offense but no duh. Those non-accidents should have been happening quicker and more emphatically if he was really ever gonna be a threat to Liston. Why would guys like Cleveland Williams and Floyd Patterson not be able to get to 4th vs Liston, but Wilder who spends almost whole fight with Molina going life and death at times is just gonna bomb the highly accurate, well schooled monster and athlete in Liston out with a right hand "eventually " Wilder clearly isn't used to fighters who actually could BOX like Fury, and oh yeah like everyone from Sonny's HW era, and oh yeah, Wilder isn't gonna make it past 4 anyway. Wilder might be best of this era, imo, but he ain't gonna break Sonny and out bully Sonny. This idea Liston would break, c'mon, he cracked under Ali's head games but Wilder isn't Ali.

Who do you think has the tougher mindset? The guy going "Til this Day" like a clown prowrestler, or the guy who didn't let white cops fuck with him when black lives didn't matter, and was tied in with the mob. We know who the scarier and more hardened man was, and it wasn't Wilder.

 

[Bubblun]

Wilder is the man right now and I think he will be undisputed in 2020 (after unification with Ruiz). However I am not crazy to compare him with Liston because there's levels of boxing tactics and teachings that have been lost in this art in the last few decades. No romanticism at all. Tapes of fights from that era are filled with traps and tricks and are fucking quantum mechanics for the matches we see nowadays.

Could you please link some videos?
Because being born 30 years ago, I can't see those "quantum mechanics" skills from the matches of ages ago, I only see fighters being bigger, stronger, faster and better conditioned in todays era.

 

[Sinister]

Well, no offense but no duh. Those non-accidents should have been happening quicker and more emphatically if he was really ever gonna be a threat to Liston. Why would guys like Cleveland Williams and Floyd Patterson not be able to get to 4th vs Liston, but Wilder who spends almost whole fight with Molina going life and death at times is just gonna bomb the highly accurate, well schooled monster and athlete in Liston out with a right hand "eventually " Wilder clearly isn't used to fighters who actually could BOX like Fury, and oh yeah like everyone from Sonny's HW era, and oh yeah, Wilder isn't gonna make it past 4 anyway. Wilder might be best of this era, imo, but he ain't gonna break Sonny and out bully Sonny. This idea Liston would break, c'mon, he cracked under Ali's head games but Wilder isn't Ali.

Who do you think has the tougher mindset? The guy going "Til this Day" like a clown prowrestler, or the guy who didn't let white cops fuck with him when black lives didn't matter, and was tied in with the mob. We know who the scarier and more hardened man was, and it wasn't Wilder.

See again, you're giving Liston this air of invincibility that leads me to believe you've mostly seen HL videos of him as opposed to fights where he actually had to go the distance, or didnt destroy his opposition in less than 4. And furthermore two names anyone should recognize. Though Cleveland Williams wasnt actually all that much better than B-level, hes mostly known for his major losses. Then you pick a name off Wilder's record to bolster your point and if anyone actually knows anything about Molina it's that his claim to fame is being a tough journeyman who makes high caliber fighters have to work for it.

And he ended up flat on his ass.

Patterson and Williams would have also both ended up blasted to bits by Wilder. Williams had nothing to stop that kind of firepower and Patterson's mental vulnerabilities when he perceived he was out-gunned would have done him in.

Hardened man? Sonny was described by most people close to him as a teddy bear. He had ferocity in the ring, and a strong will, but he was never described as particularly frightening by anyone other than reporters and opponents. He was tied in with the mob because that was just boxing in those days. Everyone dealt with them and they likely killed him for it. Sonny was a man of his time, as Wilder is. It's not a good idea to have either of them pissed off at you. Theres video of Wilder beating the shit out of a YouTube troll for saying something derogatory about his daughter. So he doesn't just talk the talk.

 

[borntoloseNOT]

See again, you're giving Liston this air of invincibility that leads me to believe you've mostly seen HL videos of him as opposed to fights where he actually had to go the distance, or didnt destroy his opposition in less than 4. And furthermore two names anyone should recognize. Though Cleveland Williams wasnt actually all that much better than B-level, hes mostly known for his major losses. Then you pick a name off Wilder's record to bolster your point and if anyone actually knows anything about Molina it's that his claim to fame is being a tough journeyman who makes high caliber fighters have to work for it.

And he ended up flat on his ass.

Patterson and Williams would have also both ended up blasted to bits by Wilder. Williams had nothing to stop that kind of firepower and Patterson's mental vulnerabilities when he perceived he was out-gunned would have done him in.

Hardened man? Sonny was described by most people close to him as a teddy bear. He had ferocity in the ring, and a strong will, but he was never described as particularly frightening by anyone other than reporters and opponents. He was tied in with the mob because that was just boxing in those days. Everyone dealt with them and they likely killed him for it. Sonny was a man of his time, as Wilder is. It's not a good idea to have either of them pissed off at you. Theres video of Wilder beating the shit out of a YouTube troll for saying something derogatory about his daughter. So he doesn't just talk the talk.

A video of Wilder beating the significantly smaller, mentally ill Charlie Zellenoff up is hardly a sign of any character at all TBH. I like Wilder, but that was a low point for him. I'm sorry you believe HL reels is all I know, I would say more but you'll say I went on boxrec next. Zora Folly obscure enough to mention for you? Lol. See, I never said Liston was invinciblr. In fact a thread not long ago pitted a round robin of Liston, Tyson, and Dempsy. I said Tyson, if the prime monster who unifies HW crown was the Tyson we were talking about, would mop floor with Liston. I have plenty of fantasy match ups I think Liston loses. Wilder is NOT one of them.

 

[Mendacious]

See again, you're giving Liston this air of invincibility that leads me to believe you've mostly seen HL videos of him as opposed to fights where he actually had to go the distance, or didnt destroy his opposition in less than 4. And furthermore two names anyone should recognize. Though Cleveland Williams wasnt actually all that much better than B-level, hes mostly known for his major losses. Then you pick a name off Wilder's record to bolster your point and if anyone actually knows anything about Molina it's that his claim to fame is being a tough journeyman who makes high caliber fighters have to work for it.

And he ended up flat on his ass.

Patterson and Williams would have also both ended up blasted to bits by Wilder. Williams had nothing to stop that kind of firepower and Patterson's mental vulnerabilities when he perceived he was out-gunned would have done him in.

Hardened man? Sonny was described by most people close to him as a teddy bear. He had ferocity in the ring, and a strong will, but he was never described as particularly frightening by anyone other than reporters and opponents. He was tied in with the mob because that was just boxing in those days. Everyone dealt with them and they likely killed him for it. Sonny was a man of his time, as Wilder is. It's not a good idea to have either of them pissed off at you. Theres video of Wilder beating the shit out of a YouTube troll for saying something derogatory about his daughter. So he doesn't just talk the talk.

I have no dog in the fight because my knowledge of Liston is 2 Ali fights and the Patterson fight but just about everyone is a teddy bear to the people close to him. I have no doubt in my mind that according to Osama bin-Laden’s closest associates that he was a teddy bear.

Unless Wikipedia is wrong, Liston learned boxing in prison, he was in prison for an armed robbery and an assault on a police officer.

I don’t care how nice you were to your friend, people pulling armed robberies and assaulting police officers are not teddy bears