some catch based stuff

Everything by Paulsen is freaking amazing...

He just keep pouring variations of subs on and on and on...
I wonder if he is the single person out there with -most- submission variations that he knows? He seems to have a just simply incredible library of subs.
 
krellik said:
Everything by Paulsen is freaking amazing...

He just keep pouring variations of subs on and on and on...
I wonder if he is the single person out there with -most- submission variations that he knows? He seems to have a just simply incredible library of subs.
Click to expand...

The point is not to know more subs than the other guy. The point is to know how to set up the subs and to change your plan of attack depending on the situation. This is the reason his lockflows exist. Submissions aren't meant to be isolated attacks.

I found most of his submission variations to be simply one move set up using different principles. Like doing a kimura from cross-body, kimura from north-south, kimura using your elbow, kimura from guard, kimura as a hammerlock, kimura with the legs, omoplata... All basically the same move pressuring your anatomy in the same ways. They are just set up or locked in different ways.

It seems very simple once you look at it as the application of general principles in different combonations. I've heard somewhere that BJJ black belts don't necessarily think in terms of moves, but think in terms of anatomy and physics. That's the genius behind Erik Paulson's moves, and you can find this principle in wrestling, judo, and BJJ as well. Simply catorgorized permutations.
 
KentPeters said:
http://www.catchwrestle.com/media.htm

Tony Cecchine's video gallery of a few moves
Click to expand...

I don't care if Cecchine's stuff is the best explained in the world. He lost all respect from me for what he has done. I find his attitude arrogant and his teaching style insufficient. His stuff is tainted. You can find the same techniques elsewhere with superior instruction.
 
Frodo said:
The point is not to know more subs than the other guy. The point is to know how to set up the subs and to change your plan of attack depending on the situation. This is the reason his lockflows exist. Submissions aren't meant to be isolated attacks.

I found most of his submission variations to be simply one move set up using different principles. Like doing a kimura from cross-body, kimura from north-south, kimura using your elbow, kimura from guard, kimura as a hammerlock, kimura with the legs, omoplata... All basically the same move pressuring your anatomy in the same ways. They are just set up or locked in different ways.

It seems very simple once you look at it as the application of general principles in different combonations. I've heard somewhere that BJJ black belts don't necessarily think in terms of moves, but think in terms of anatomy and physics. That's the genius behind Erik Paulson's moves, and you can find this principle in wrestling, judo, and BJJ as well. Simply catorgorized permutations.
Click to expand...

I freaking know it was going to sound like I ranked someones grappling skills by how many moves they know when I wrote that post...;):P

All im saying is that when it comes to subs Erik is the one teacher I have seen who just keeps pouring out variations in his tapes, whery unorthodox ones to in many cases.. I havent seen anybody else present quite the same variety. Thats all I meant.

His killer leglocks for instance, its like 2 hours of nonstop leglock variations that he keeps throwing at you in this pace: Bam-bam-bam-bam-bam-bam
 
I don't care if Cecchine's stuff is the best explained in the world. He lost all respect from me for what he has done. I find his attitude arrogant and his teaching style insufficient. His stuff is tainted. You can find the same techniques elsewhere with superior instruction.
Click to expand...


There is a Tony C seminar clip floating around on google Vids but I was ashamed to post it becuase he seems so uneducated about BJJ. He often says "the brazilians like to do this.." and he is way off on many of his assumptions. Of course I think these tapes were made during the heyday of Roycae and the UFC and it APPEARED the brazilians liked things a certain way but as we grew to learn more about the style we came to find out that was NOT the case at all.

He does present some interesting stuff though. There is a clip of him doing a "leg hammerlock " (omoplata) off of a failed double leg attampt that appears it could work if you stuff the takedown with a good sprawl. Now I am not sure how old the seminar vid was but I spent a couple years learning BJJ around the time of UFC 2 (ish) and wasnt shown the omoplata till about 3-4 years ago. So what I am saying is that perhaps he had seen it in BJJ but perhaps not becasue I hadnt seen it yet and had actually trained in the style.

Just google ceccine on goolge vids its about a 15 minute clip. But he f***s it all up with his false assumptions and bad attitude, otherwise it would be a decent clip to watch.
 
cecchine is a joke. i'd bet my life savings on any advanced no gi NAGA or Grappler's Quest winner to tap him in under 5 minutes. that fat bastard matt furey too.

paulson's stuff is good...i have his leglocks instructional.
 
I have Tony C's DVD's, all of them [don't worry, I didn't spend a penny to get'em]. Most of his stuff only works if you are way heavier then the guy you're rolling with and you can force the hold on. It's fake pro style wrestling for the most part.
 
knoxpk said:
There is a Tony C seminar clip floating around on google Vids but I was ashamed to post it becuase he seems so uneducated about BJJ.
Click to expand...
I know just the clip, and a BJJ purple belt wrote the best review of it on another forum, which I will gladly reproduce here:
I was bored, so I found myself willing to sit through 16 minutes of that....

Anyways, Tony apparently likes to poke fun at the "jiu jitsu" guys. Whats even funnier is that his assumptions and accusations that hes making of the jiu jitsu guys are his misconceptions of jiu jitsu because of his lack of understanding in grappling.

Anyways, on to the technique critique

Lets just say that the omoplata at @ 3:20 is nothing short of atrocious. With such a loose hold on the shoulder, nothing is preventing his opponent from simply circling his arm out and coming back up to a neutral position. As you can clearly see, hes relying on his grip on his opponents wrist to attempt to prevent him from escaping the omoplata. Your grip on a sweaty wrist vs the leverage of your opponents entire body.....

The correct way locks the shoulder with your legs, and by engaging your abs and sitting up, you effectively trap your opponents wrist between your abs and your thighs.



Side Control @ 3:43

Here Tony critiques jiu jitsu fighters for staying on their knees from cross side. I find this rather amusing, since there are a variety of positions with which to hold cross side. Tony's cross side control is atrocious- the person demonstrating has his hips way too low to have his weight on his opponent. If his opponent attempts to escape, the man on top is holding with his arms, contrary to Tony's belief that hes using his body. The PROPER positioning of the hips for the top man is to have the point of his hips on the point of his opponents hips. This will maximize the pressure the top man can have on the bottom man. You could say that Tony's not the one demonstrating the technique, but he is the one directing the control of the person in the top position. That cross side hold down might stop a white belt, but the amount of space available for an elbow escape back to guard from that position is atrocious- I could drive a truck through there.

By the time one becomes an experienced blue belt or by the time they're a purple belt, jiu jitsu fighters are well aware that they want to keep their knees off of the ground so as to keep the weight on their opponent, but now why do we still see BJJ fighters controlling from cross side on their knees? The answer is to set up various attacks from cross side. When an opponent exposes his arms and limbs from cross side, he starts to open himself up for attacks. The problem with the man in the top position when he was on his knees is that he was not tight enough to secure his opponents limbs. Watch the clip and notice how far away his knees are from his opponents head- he should be trying to touch his head with his knees- now his left arm secures head control and hes once again able to use his body to lock the right arm of the man on bottom, allowing for various submissions and positioning techniques.

Want a closer look? Watch the few tapes of Rickson when he fought Funaki or in Choke when he fought in Vale Tudo 95- he uses his knee to open up his opponents elbows- this prevents any possible form of elbow escape and allows for an easy transition to the mounted position. You can also watch Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira vs Mirko Cro Cop- notice how Nog uses his left knee to open up Cro Cops elbow and allow for an easy mount?


Kimura @ 6:20

This one kinda surpised me, since catch wrestlers are often reknown for having good kimuras- Tony's details are horrendus.

He talks about not sitting up like the "jiu jitsu guys." Once again, the jiu jitsu guys sit up to isolate the limb and attack with the lock. Good ol' Tony thinks that with the tweak of his wrist, he can break a resisting opponents posture and pressure allowing for an easy kimura-I've been doing kimuras for awhile, its not that simple. The other mistake that Tony is making is that his hips are still flat on the ground. Once you lock your arms together in a kimura, the fight is NOT with your arms, but rather with your hips. From this position, Tony would be best suited escaping his hips further towards the side of the kimura (so that his left hip is on the ground and his right hip is facing up). This will maximize the leverage for the kimura.

Without sitting up for the kimura, your opponent is simply going to drive back into you and pin your hips to the ground. This is why the fight is with your hips and not your arms. Look very closely at 8:57 and you will see that Tony does indeed have his hips flat against the ground.


Kimura @ 7:41

I couldnt believe this one- Tony has the guard and elects to give the cross side in order for a kimura attempt. Essentially what hes doing is jumping to cross side to give himself leverage (or what he thinks is leverage) for a kimura. We're all taught never to attempt to attack from cross side in BJJ, and for a good reason- it exposes you to to attacks. The counter to this attack is a beautifully set up armbar where the man on top need only swing his hips in a circle. If you'll notice, Tony uses a rather crude hook that merely prevents his opponent from rolling out of the kimura, but in this counter, you're not rolling out but simply circling to the side, to which Tony has no defense.

If you're still having troubling picturing this counter, just watch the submission that Matt Hughes used against GSP- Pierre was attempting kimuras the entire round against Hughes (and trying them from half guard). At the end of the round, St Piere locks on in, but Hughes slides out of half guard (putting him in the exact position Tony is showing) and spins around for a beautiful armlock submission.


Armdrag from guard @ 11:07

Once again, Tony's details are focusing on the wrong things. From here, Tony describes the important details of the position as grabbing your opponents waist- this is incorrect. The important detail is sitting up to close the distance between your opponent torso and your own. Even if you grab at your opponents waist, wirery guys can still swim their arms through and grab your waist and go back to the guard- this has happened to anyone who's ever attempted an armdrag. Essentially, what one wants to do is to sit up so that your chest is on your opponents back. This way, you're using your chest and the strength of your entire body against your opponents counter and him trying to bring his arm back. If you use Tony's method, hes using the strength of his arms to take the back as opposed to the method taught in jiu jitsu where you use your entire body.

So, Tony likes to rag on the jiu jitsu guys and claims they use their limbs to control their opponents- lets do a little recap here:

From his cross side position, elbow escape back to full guard is an easy and obvious option- Tony's method of holding cross side involves using your arms to hold the person in tight (even though he says otherwise). The jiu jitsu method has you use your hips on your opponents hips utilizing your entire body against your opponents.

His kimura's rely once against on the strength of his arms to pry the arm up and apply the lock- the jiu jitsu guys maneuver their hips so as to keep their own arms tight to their body (your arms are stronger when they're closer to your body as opposed to extended away from your body). This allows for one to use their entire body rather than just their arms.


Tony's omoplata relies on wrist control to prevent an opponent from escaping. The jiu jitsu technique allows for locking the technique with your legs (stronger than your wrists) and utilzing your entire body to apply the technique.

And he says jiu jitsu guys rely on their limbs to control their opponents.....​
 
Apparently Cecchine is even worse than I thought. Figures...
 
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