Some Baseball Players Who Should be in the Hall of Fame

Is there any steroid suspicion on Walker? If not, it looks like he should go in.
 
What do people think about A-ROD? And what should be the resolution of the "steroid suspicion" issue? Should they all go in on the theory that everyone was doing it and so players with extraordinary performance would have done well if no one was doing it? Wouldn't that line of reasoning support the resurrection of Lance Armstrong?
 
platypus44 said:
What do people think about A-ROD? And what should be the resolution of the "steroid suspicion" issue? Should they all go in on the theory that everyone was doing it and so players with extraordinary performance would have done well if no one was doing it? Wouldn't that line of reasoning support the resurrection of Lance Armstrong?
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The difference is that the legality of steroid use according to MLB rules was pretty murky up until 2005 and there was no real testing.

For Lance it was illegal with a testing policy.

Also imo Lance doping wasn't as big of deal to me as his destroying peoples lives including turning in other dopers while he was cheating himself.
 
PolishHeadlock said:
The difference is that the legality of steroid use according to MLB rules was pretty murky up until 2005 and there was no real testing.

For Lance it was illegal with a testing policy.

Also imo Lance doping wasn't as big of deal to me as his destroying peoples lives including turning in other dopers while he was cheating himself.
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If we give the steroid suspects (and convicts) a complete pass, who gets in? Definitely Clemons and Bonds. For a long time, anyone who had more than 400 home runs got in. Should we let in anyone with more than 500 home runs? We do that with 3000 hits and 300 wins. A whole lot of guys will get in if we open the gates on the steroid issue.
I didn't realize that Lance turned others in for cheating. You have to admit that that took balls (or at least one) but still a shitty thing to do.
 
sometimes i think that if it is obvious a player would have got in even if he hadn't used them, he should be in. So the following players should be in:

Barry Bonds
Clemens
ARod

Players who probably have the numbers but it was due to steroids:

Rafael Palmero
McGwire
Sammy Sosa

Players who might have been HOF worthy w/o steroids, but it's not 100%

Manny Ramirez
Gary Sheffield

Power Hitter who gets lost of the shuffle, but is presumed clean and probably WILL get HOF:

Jim Thome
 
platypus44 said:
Is there any steroid suspicion on Walker? If not, it looks like he should go in.
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there is a pretty strong colorado bias though, so that hurts him since he played such a large portion of his career there. same will happen to helton who might not get in at all since he is borderline worthy on numbers, and considering he played in colorado his entire career.......
 
platypus44 said:
If we give the steroid suspects (and convicts) a complete pass, who gets in? Definitely Clemons and Bonds. For a long time, anyone who had more than 400 home runs got in. Should we let in anyone with more than 500 home runs? We do that with 3000 hits and 300 wins. A whole lot of guys will get in if we open the gates on the steroid issue.
I didn't realize that Lance turned others in for cheating. You have to admit that that took balls (or at least one) but still a shitty thing to do.
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We talked about this before. I'm not counting stat guy who thinks X number gets you into the hall.

Look at how many times a guy lead the league or at least was top 3 in these stats.

Look at that pussy Palmeiro, he has more HRs than Schmidt but never lead the league in HRs and was top 3 only 3 times.

Schmidt lead the league 8 times, was top 3 11 times.
 
PolishHeadlock said:
We talked about this before. I'm not counting stat guy who thinks X number gets you into the hall.

Look at how many times a guy lead the league or at least was top 3 in these stats.

Look at that pussy Palmeiro, he has more HRs than Schmidt but never lead the league in HRs and was top 3 only 3 times.

Schmidt lead the league 8 times, was top 3 11 times.
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You have to put numbers in context - hitting .300 in 1930 when that was the league average didn't mean as much as hitting .300 in 1907 or 1968. Similarly, the explosion of home run statistics means that hitting 50 homers a season in the past 20 years doesn't mean as much as hitting 50 homers a year in the early 1920's when Babe Ruth did and by doing so hit more home runs than 5 or 6 of the other TEAMS in the league.
So I think that the home run bar has to be raised. But there will still probably be a lifetime level which virtually assures HOF entry. Maybe it should be 500; maybe it should be 600. But it can't be 400 anymore.
Some players get in based on lifetime statistics without having super peak statistics (e.g. Don Sutton).
 
platypus44 said:
You have to put numbers in context - hitting .300 in 1930 when that was the league average didn't mean as much as hitting .300 in 1907 or 1968. Similarly, the explosion of home run statistics means that hitting 50 homers a season in the past 20 years doesn't mean as much as hitting 50 homers a year in the early 1920's when Babe Ruth did and by doing so hit more home runs than 5 or 6 of the other TEAMS in the league.
So I think that the home run bar has to be raised. But there will still probably be a lifetime level which virtually assures HOF entry. Maybe it should be 500; maybe it should be 600. But it can't be 400 anymore.
Some players get in based on lifetime statistics without having super peak statistics (e.g. Don Sutton).
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I think looking at how many time a dude lead the league (and by how much) puts the numbers into context.
 
mr.bigglesworth said:
Pete Rose?
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A shoe-in without the gambling scandal. And I tend to think that the gambling scandal was overblown. If Rose had had a good PR agent, he would have claimed he was a victim of "gambling addiction", gone into rehab, written a book "My Bet, Your Bet", and become a spokesperson for Gamblers Anonymous. He could then feed his need for risk by becoming a day trader in the stock market which is socially acceptable in the USA. He obviously had a shitty PR guy.
He should definitely get in.
 
PolishHeadlock said:
I think looking at how many time a dude lead the league (and by how much) puts the numbers into context.
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Here's who gets in if the floor is 500 home runs.
1. Bonds - 762
2. AROD - 696
3. Thome -612
4. Sosa-609
5. Pujols-589
6. McGwire-583
7.Palmiero-569
8. Manny- 555
9. Ortiz-534
10. Sheffield-509

Thome is a player who illustrates the career value/peak value dilemma. Led the league only in HR's once, RBI's three times, Slugging once. Never in the top 3 for MVP. Only 5 All Star games in 22 years. But 612 home runs and a career OBA over 400.
All sorts of players had much more peak value but he hung in there for 22 productive years.
The Don Sutton of home run hitters.
 
platypus44 said:
Here's who gets in if the floor is 500 home runs.
1. Bonds - 762
2. AROD - 696
3. Thome -612
4. Sosa-609
5. Pujols-589
6. McGwire-583
7.Palmiero-569
8. Manny- 555
9. Ortiz-534
10. Sheffield-509

Thome is a player who illustrates the career value/peak value dilemma. Led the league only in HR's once, RBI's three times, Slugging once. Never in the top 3 for MVP. Only 5 All Star games in 22 years. But 612 home runs and a career OBA over 400.
All sorts of players had much more peak value but he hung in there for 22 productive years.
The Don Sutton of home run hitters.
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I was unaware Pujols was also blacklisted for the HOF.
 
the ambush said:
I was unaware Pujols was also blacklisted for the HOF.
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I don't think he has been. I think he is not yet eligible for consideration. I think that the rule is that you have to be retired for 5 years before they can begin to vote on your admission.
 
My prediction is now that all of the guys listed above with over 500 home runs ultimately get in. I think that there will be breeches in the "steroid wall" and it will ultimately collapse and that all of these guys put down extraordinary numbers.
 
There are about 200 post-1900 players in the HOF - IMHO and based on statistics, third baseman, catchers and pitchers are underrepresented - so, after reviewing posts on this thread - I have concluded that:
Edgar Martinez and Ken Boyer should go in to increase the third baseman group.
Thurman Munson and Ted Simmons should go in to increase catchers.
Jack Morris and Lee Smith should go in to increase pitchers.
We have several third basemen and catchers coming up for eligibility which will balance things out after the above admissions.
 
Barry Bonds is the only player in the 500/500 club and was 500/400 before the supposed steroids. The HOF is an absolute joke until hes in
 
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