Socialism grows directly out of capitalism.Communism is a further development or "hi

Discussion in 'The War Room' started by Shulman, Jan 16, 2015.

  1. Shulman

    Shulman Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2008
    Messages:
    697
    Likes Received:
    47
    http://www.marxmail.org/faq/socialism_and_communism.htm

    Found this interesting what are your thoughts on this?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 16, 2015
  2. Bay Area

    Bay Area Silver Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2011
    Messages:
    11,880
    Likes Received:
    2,154
    Location:
    Concrete Jungle
    We need socialism in this country.
     
  3. PorkPiePusher

    PorkPiePusher Loro Piana cashmere belt

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2011
    Messages:
    3,416
    Likes Received:
    672
    Location:
    Tlön, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius
    I remember one lazy summer when I was 13 or so, I came across a book which postulated that communism is only an evolved form of humanitarian or reasonable capitalism, and that in the same way in which democracy had a short first run in Periclean Athens but came back to reign, so too would communism.

    While this was what seems a lifetime ago, and the authors name is long lost to my memory, I dare say that the concepts introduced to me at that time shaped my way of thinking for all days to come.

    Thank you for sharing this article TS, this is indeed one of my pet subjects.
     
  4. Bay Area

    Bay Area Silver Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2011
    Messages:
    11,880
    Likes Received:
    2,154
    Location:
    Concrete Jungle
    My wife who is Chinese, told me that communism is an ultimate goal. Governments have tried to reach it, but it remains elusive. There has never been a truly communist government in history. At any rate, I agree that capitalism is the lowest on the evolutionary ladder.
     
  5. Zankou

    Zankou Bringing peace and love Staff Member Senior Moderator

    Joined:
    May 24, 2004
    Messages:
    30,799
    Likes Received:
    7,911
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    This is just standard Marxist philosophy.

    The entire point of Marxism is to view history as a process that has a broader inner logic of development that expresses itself through historical events -- taking Hegelian philosophy and interpreting human history through it, in the context of material economy.

    In this Marxist way of analyzing history, which Marxists contend is 'scientific,' there is an inherent logical drive from traditional ways of organizing society to increasingly rational ways of organizing society. Capitalism is a stage that shattered the feudal authoritative relations and unleashed enormous energies of economic development and social change. But per standard Marxist philosophy, it will kill itself through generating forces that it cannot control, much as a fermenting bottle of wine reaches an alcohol level that kills the bacteria that have been fermenting it.

    What forces? The rise of the proletariat, who demand that ownership and control of the means of production be subjected to their political power and will. This is socialism.

    Ultimately socialism will evolve, much like capitalism, into communism, the purest expression of a rational ordering of society in accordance with mass human will. The forces of 'reaction' attempt to prevent this state from being reached, but like a blowtorch that keeps piercing through and breaking down all resistance, the flame of rational collective consciousness will intensify until all of society will become one uber-rational community. AKA communism.

    This is an ultimate expression of Enlightenment era philosophical thought. Things like Progressivism are sort of watered-down versions of it.
     
  6. Rusk

    Rusk Black Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2012
    Messages:
    7,022
    Likes Received:
    3,077
    Of course, its in every government's nature to (try) grow.
     
  7. Jack V Savage

    Jack V Savage Secretary of Keepin' It Real/Nicest Guy on Sherdog Platinum Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2004
    Messages:
    72,193
    Likes Received:
    43,551
    Seems to me that the trend has been pretty obviously in the other direction. How do you define "grow"?
     
  8. Rusk

    Rusk Black Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2012
    Messages:
    7,022
    Likes Received:
    3,077
    Power over people, people dependence on the government, governments presence in every day life.
     
  9. Bay Area

    Bay Area Silver Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2011
    Messages:
    11,880
    Likes Received:
    2,154
    Location:
    Concrete Jungle
    What "forces of reaction" do you speak of?
     
  10. Jack V Savage

    Jack V Savage Secretary of Keepin' It Real/Nicest Guy on Sherdog Platinum Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2004
    Messages:
    72,193
    Likes Received:
    43,551
    So, yeah, the trend is definitely not toward growth.
     
  11. Rusk

    Rusk Black Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2012
    Messages:
    7,022
    Likes Received:
    3,077
    depends of what country we are talking about
     
  12. MikeHammer**

    MikeHammer** Banned Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2014
    Messages:
    832
    Likes Received:
    1
    the facts seem to not agree with your point as growth of governments world wide, especially in the developed world has been prodigious over the last century.
     
  13. Roaming East

    Roaming East Ficti pravique tenax

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2011
    Messages:
    2,811
    Likes Received:
    2,912
    If communism is an evolution of capitalism why is it that the founding countries of it were not areas that ever HAD capitalism to begin with? If anything, both socialism and capitalism had their roots and are resultant evolutions of the feudalism that pervaded most of europe prior to the industrial revolution. That communism was often co-opted to a statist position rather than a collectivist stance is more a reflection of the cultural effects in the countries that initially laid the ground work for how it was applied physically (looking at you Russia and China)
     
  14. Jack V Savage

    Jack V Savage Secretary of Keepin' It Real/Nicest Guy on Sherdog Platinum Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2004
    Messages:
    72,193
    Likes Received:
    43,551
    Previously, you said that it's "every gov't's nature to grow." That is clearly not the case. If you're changing it to "it's some gov'ts' nature to grow," I'd agree.

    The facts absolutely agree with my point, as growth of gov'ts worldwide, including in the developed world, has been negative over the last century (and even more negative if you go back further). It wasn't that long ago, for example, that you could get arrested in the U.S. for playing baseball on Sunday. As late as 1945, Southern gov'ts were still enslaving people (and renting them to private businesses).
     
  15. Zankou

    Zankou Bringing peace and love Staff Member Senior Moderator

    Joined:
    May 24, 2004
    Messages:
    30,799
    Likes Received:
    7,911
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    This is a central historical problem for Marxism. Marx himself, and the early communists generally, assumed that communism would arise in urban, educated environments, as the proletariat achieved rational consciousness. In particular, Marx believed that *Germany* and the *German labor movement* would be the locus of communism. From the very core of capitalism, places like England and Germany, socialism was supposed to arise, then flowering into communism. That is because socialism and communism were supposed to be uber-rational developments in the development of reason triumphing over tradition, and so it made sense they would arise in the most sophisticated and civilized urban environments.

    But communism actually arose primarily in brutal, uneducated, provincial contexts, notably Russia, rather than in the developed capitalist core regions.

    Marxists struggled to explain this paradox, and they also struggled to explain why the predictions didn't come true and Jesus didn't arrive with the Second Communist Coming as Marx had predicted. There are libraries full of Marxist explanations and theories about this, most centering on the idea that the forces of reaction turned out to be more sinister and controlling than Marx had understood.

    Nowadays Marxism is more about holding faith and being pious rather than belief that the Second Coming is truly imminent; that's an article of faith that nobody actually believes. This is why the Chinese communists hold 'true communism' up as sort of a vacuous far-off ideal, and most Chinese nowadays think of the communists as like Jehovah's witnesses.
     
  16. IDL

    IDL Gold Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2009
    Messages:
    24,836
    Likes Received:
    21,067
    Location:
    Lending money to your government
    It's the ultimate goal of the ruling class because it represents totalitarian power which is really what they want.

    It's just a matter of selling utopia to the masses with no real plans on delivering. Who knows, maybe in the West they will get a revolution of the proletariat going at some point so they can have their police state.
     
  17. James Keith

    James Keith Silver Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2008
    Messages:
    10,410
    Likes Received:
    4
    Location:
    San Diego
    Well that tiny list of anecdotal examples totally nails the case. Fact is though, in terms of the amount of resources used by the institution of govt it has still grown, just in ways you apparently like.

    Even if govt spending remained a fixed percentage of GDP, the fact that the GDP per capita increases due to people becoming more productive means the govt is growing larger since more productive output per capita is now required to support it.
     
  18. Gandhi

    Gandhi War Room Deep State Platinum Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2003
    Messages:
    19,869
    Likes Received:
    13,552
    Location:
    MTL in ORLANDO
    the biggest flaw in this historical determinism is that ability of market economies to redirect some of the newly created wealth to the creation of social goods. Capitalism both created more wealth and social goods than communists regimes could while central planning led to economic stagnation.
     
  19. Lee978

    Lee978 Seeking Alpha

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2006
    Messages:
    6,983
    Likes Received:
    11
    Location:
    On the cusp of GREATNESS
    I still think the chief problem with socialism is economic. Even if everyone on earth agreed that socialism/commuism is the end goal, how are they suppose to arrive there and sustain such a society without the price system? Here Austrians I think made the best arguments for why such a society, even if agreed upon by everyone, couldn't be sustained.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticisms_of_socialism#Distorted_or_absent_price_signals
     
  20. Jack V Savage

    Jack V Savage Secretary of Keepin' It Real/Nicest Guy on Sherdog Platinum Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2004
    Messages:
    72,193
    Likes Received:
    43,551
    I think the existence and then disappearance of state-enforced slavery is sufficient to make the case, and not just some little anecdote.

    The amount of resources used by everything has grown. That definition makes the whole point meaningless (the richer the society, the "bigger" the gov't is). We were specifically talking about gov't's power over people and presence in everyday lives.

    Which is the reason that your definition is not informative. Looking at spending or taxation is generally irrelevant to the size of gov't (measured by control and presence) because they're arbitrary. Gov'ts can choose not to tax or spend and just accomplish what they want through tax credits or force.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.