So why do some fighters have more longevity than others?

Discussion in 'Boxing Discussion' started by ZroC, Jan 9, 2013.

  1. ZroC

    ZroC Silver Belt

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    I know we've been here before but the threads on the front page are giving me a headache at this stage.

    Manny who started at a young age is said to be slowing down at 34. Though personally I don't see this.

    We have Cotto who seems to be fading at 35.

    Mayweather is 36 ... doesn't really seem to be slowing

    Vitali is lasting into his 40s

    Muhammad Ali came back multiple times to take the title and fight for the title

    Wlad has actually gotten better in his 30s

    Martinez started boxing at 23 and he's still going strong at 37

    James Braddock, a washed up boxer, came back in his later years and beat Max Baer

    Hopkins started at 23 but is still lively approaching his 50s

    Marcianno started at 24-25, retired at 31

    Roy Jones started to suck moving into his late thirties

    Same for Evander

    Tyson's prime apparently lasted a few strange months nobody can pin point exactly

    Archie Moore became the oldest to win the LHW title

    Jersey Joe Wallcott became the oldest man in his day to win the HW title at 37

    George Foreman started boxing at age 18 - became oldest HW champ ever

    Guillermo Rigondeaux, the most successful amateur of all time, didn't turn pro till 32 yet people seem to have high hopes for him at pro, even though he's close to the usual point boxers slow down.

    Same for GGG in a way
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2013
  2. mozfonky

    mozfonky We oughta be fightin' a bottle of Geritol.

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    Was a time when having the pfp'rs we have today at the age they are at would have been unbelievable to boxing people. Main reason in my mind is punishment, fighters take less punishment than they used to, I have to say, and I know no one wants to hear it and won't believe it, the fighters just aren't as competitive. Then we have lifestyle, drugs, alcohol, overeating, women, all known to take away from fighters. still, it was startling when th 00's started to see fighters in their mid thirties for once able to dominate younger fighters. Much was made of this new era, Jesse James Leija was thought to be finished until he beat a young Hector Camacho Jr. who basically quit, then we had the 37 year old Hopkins beat the younger trinidad, then, it just became normal for the champions to be 35-40 years old. An age where even the greatest of past champions could no longer compete. The older fighters certainly don't look any hungrier, in fact a Hopkins never really showed real fire to me, just a solid pro who took advantage of guys without a full game.
     
  3. JayElectra

    JayElectra Paper Belt Banned

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    Lifestyles and fighting styles. Also, the age of PEDs has probably allowed for greater longevity, though, there are a lot of great fighters that were elite at similar ages to the fighters today.
     
  4. ZroC

    ZroC Silver Belt

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    I mentioned some older fighters with longevity for that exact reason. I'm sure there are more older fighters who hung around longer too. It's just harder to find information about the older guys, especially their ages when who fought who without calculating it by hand. Having fighters who last into their later years appears to be timeless in boxing.
     
  5. LogicalInsanity

    LogicalInsanity Co-Founder of SDLS (Sexual Deviant Leftist Scum)

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    Lifestyles...

    not smoking, drinking, drugs...

    and fighting styles...it's not big surprise why fighters like MOrales, Gatti, MAB break down fast...while fighters like B Hop, PBF can last much longer...

    I hate to quote JOe rogan here...but "you can only get your clock punched so many times..."
     
  6. mozfonky

    mozfonky We oughta be fightin' a bottle of Geritol.

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    The comp has a ton to do with it. Larry Holmes showed signs of slipping well before his first loss but he was able to come back in the nineties and beat some good fighters, the comp wasn't there. And oh yea, i forgot to mention PEDs, probably a huge factor. Chronological age has always been only a part of ring age, I remember seeing young guys who were shot by 26. Don Curry, Wilfredo Benitez, Davey Moore, many, many guys who after a tough fight or a lot of fights just had nothing left and were being beaten buy average and below average fighters. Sad thing is, at that stage, they only have their names left, Don Curry finished his career getting beat up in clubs, Benitez got slaughtered by Hamsho and Hilton, two fighters who never came close to greatness, Davey moore, never a great fighter but a good young fighter was completely ruined by the Duran fight, I last saw him on the Hagler/Leonard undercard where he couldn't do a thing with Lupe Aquino, he didn't have 15 fights when duran fought him. So that brings us to psychology, a good tough fight can take all the confidence, desire, hunger as well as whatever it physically takes out of a man. Could happen at any age. Post-camacho's death some writer said he was shot at 25, I thought that was stretching it but Macho never did show the promise he did in his early twenties.
     
  7. mozfonky

    mozfonky We oughta be fightin' a bottle of Geritol.

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    ya it's been around but they weren't dominating like they are now. both klitckos are 40, Hopkins has been beating younger guys for awhile, Mayweather and Manny are both mid thirties, that is unheard of. Up until George Foreman, the oldest heavyweight champ jersey joe and he was only 37, and heavyweights mature the latest of all fighters. Sugar Ray Robinson had staying power but he was no longer a dominant champ after his comeback, he and willie pep fought until their mid 40's but they were pretty much out of the serious picture for a long time when they retired. Sure fighters fought forever, they always have, Jack Johnson was filmed fighting an exhibition in his sixties but he wasn't a serious fighter anymore. I guess we define longevity differently, I define it as how long you can be a legitimate consideration for one of the best in the world, not how long they fight because all great fighters and a good portion of not so great fighters have always fought too long.
     
  8. ZroC

    ZroC Silver Belt

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    We still have those guys today, it's just nobody admits they're shot and they proceed to fight weaker competition. Amir Khan might be a good example right now. I think it's a bit harsh to say a fighter can wear out in his 20s though. Personally I believe the age range has always been exaggerated to make it seem tougher.

    People always use PEDs as an explanation, which is perfectly valid, but we have to remember those old guys lived in an age where cocaine was an over the counter drug and didn't have any drug testing either. God knows what they were taking.

    it wasn't going to get younger. Everytime someone sets a record someone is bound to come along and break it, especially in this age where record breaking seems like a national obsession.
     
  9. mozfonky

    mozfonky We oughta be fightin' a bottle of Geritol.

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    harsh? boxing is a harsh sport. do you know when I came to believe that age had little, or could have little to do with being shot? I spoke to a former boxer who said that he'd watched a couple 18 year olds on espn in a war and that he saw them when they fought later on and they were gone. And then we have the venerable guys like Eddie Futch who've always said age had nothing to do with it, naming guys like mando ramos who was a champ at 20 or whatever and "couldn't lick his lips at 23". Many factors, many, many, including just interest. If you can't even get interested in training anymore of course you can't fight your best. Training hard is grueling, not fun, I've done it, we've all been through something which we could relate to it though, ever go to school and have to pull allnighters or study for finals? How did it make you feel? Friendly? doubt it, it makes you tired, irritable, difficult and not too happy, who wants to put themselves through that forever. Norman Mailer once said it best that "old fighters react to hard training like beautiful women do to cleaning floors". It's true, I've heard that athletes commonly avoid exertion when they retire because they just don't wan to do it anymore.
     
  10. mozfonky

    mozfonky We oughta be fightin' a bottle of Geritol.

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    khan maybe or maybe not shot, i don't know, he was never a great fighter though. Had no chin. Now, a shot fighter today and for many many years has been roy jones, he's a guy who has absolutely nothing left, he's the perfect example of an old champ holding on too long for past glory and money. Crazy how history repeats itself and how people never learn.
     
  11. WatchMeDoMe**

    WatchMeDoMe** Banned Banned

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    I believe this is the overwhelmingly dominant factor in speeding up a fighters ticking clock.

    Wear and tear from training and punishment in the ring contribute to how quickly in the course of a fighters career he will become 'shot' significantly more than any lifestyle, weight class or genetic factors
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2013
  12. Tobacco

    Tobacco --------------------------------------------------

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    The more scientific you are, the more defensive minded you are, and the weaker the competition/less frequent you fight, the greater longevity you will have.
     
  13. mozfonky

    mozfonky We oughta be fightin' a bottle of Geritol.

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    the older era of fighters also fought ridiculous amounts of ammy fights, I doubt Hopkins fought a million ammie fights but maybe he did, RJ probably fought a hundred or so but Donald Curry had like 300 or 400 ammy fights, just stupid, why fight that much? Way too much.

    and when you just are an observer you forget you're watching human beings with human frailties. I've known guys who were just in one streetfight come out of it slurring, and MMA guys who never even spar very hard but may still end up taking a ring beating and they slur and get that glazed look so many fighters have. It doesn't take much to cause damage, the, I guess between the George Chuvalo's (guys who could take inhuman punishment and today seem fine) and the Riddick Bowes (Guys who didn't seem to take the punishment which would leave them talking as badly as they do) there's a whole spectrum of varying abilities to take punishment.
     
  14. SkribbLe

    SkribbLe Orange Belt

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    I have 129 ammy fights and I'm 15. I am very VERY far from brain damage. I take very good care of myself. I have the best headgear money could buy for sparring, I haven't lost my edge in school. It's really about how you protect yourself sparring. You shouldn't spar with competition headgear. You should have as much protection as you could.
     
  15. ZroC

    ZroC Silver Belt

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    They still fight a shit tonne at amateur. Mayweather has around 150 fights and that's considered kind of low. The guy said to have the most amateur fights ever is an active Cuban fighter named Guillermo Rigondeaux who recently turned pro with 400 wins with 12 losses. Still looks pretty phenomenal despite it all. I'd bet P4P he'd destroy Mayweather. There are guys in my local gym who have been boxing since they were 13 and have amassed around 200 fights by their 20s.

    http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/Guillermo_Rigondeaux_Ortiz
    Rigondeaux is a seven-time (2000-06) Cuban national champion at bantamweight. He claims an amateur record of nearly 400 fights with twelve losses -- with his last losses coming to Rencise Perez and Bekzat Sattarkhanov in 1998, Waldemar Font in 1999, and his most recent loss against Agasi Mamedov in 2003.
     
  16. mozfonky

    mozfonky We oughta be fightin' a bottle of Geritol.

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    was not my point, most of the damage shows up later in some form or another. I can name you a lot of fighters who were fine when they were young only to end up in diapers when they got old, for pugilistica dementia. You are a kid, you don't know anything about anything yet, hopefully you've got good handlers and yes, sparring/fights ammie and pro all contribute to wear and tear. donald curry had like 300 or 400 ridiculous. no one needs that then consider some fighters have been hard sparring since they were little kids.
     
  17. mozfonky

    mozfonky We oughta be fightin' a bottle of Geritol.

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    that's way too fucking much, I don't know if they do or don't in america anymore, other parts of the world I don't know. I imagine here in the US it just isn't that popular anymore, it just isn't and the young kids here, even black kids are a bunch of coddled momma's boy now. I've thought of training kids but I don't see the raw materials out here, at least mentally. Anyway, you can stop trying to convince me that the more you get punched in the better off you'll be, that's just not true. Go listen to how the older fighters sound now, go ahead, Whitaker, Hearns, Bowe, many sound ok, many do not, everyone is different but taking shots doesn't help anyone.
     
  18. SalmanShakeel

    SalmanShakeel White Belt

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    harder fights shorten careers
     
  19. ZroC

    ZroC Silver Belt

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    I'm not sure how you picked that up
     
  20. Someone88

    Someone88 Silver Belt

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    TS you could include Marquez as well, there are different factors as to why some fighters have more longevity than others. I agree that Wladimir has gotten better.
     

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