So where does one go to learn stand up?

Honestly, aren't the rolling throws mainly from big forward throws?

Shouldn't you be able to avoid them with ashi waza? O soto, ko soto, harai tsurikomi ashi, deashi barai....

Especially with that bent forward stance, that front foot is begging for a osoto or deashi.
 
Dude, no matter how you dilute it your basic skills are not going to get so watered that you cannot use Judo throws on a BJJ fight or on the street.

Train Judo. Alternatively, Sambo is an even better option because of the way better groundfighting and less silly rules. Wrestling is also a good option specially as throws are more important in no-gi than in gi BJJ and you can translate things, specially leg picks and suck, well into the bent stance.
 
I think Rodolfo Vieira has an almost ideal takedown game for a HW in BJJ (and HW division is far and away where takedowns matter most), based almost entirely on judo with a few modifications. Love these breakdowns:

[YT]GgkNZeoVSG0[/YT]

[YT]j8EusEhPqNY[/YT]

People complain that judo doesn't allow leg grabs, but it's not like the leg grabs that work well in BJJ ... essentially the single leg 'grab' while holding the lapel, and the ankle pick ... are particularly hard to pick up and add to a pure judo game.
 
Zankou said:
The transitional ability is definitely useful, but you have to consider the different rulesets. In judo, the rules are structured to emphasize and reward huge forward throws. Players are incentivized to defend by making sure they land in a way that doesn't give high scores/ippon (which creates lots of opportunities). Turtle is much more of a prominent defense. There are no points for taking the back. People have upright posture. As a result of many such differences in the rules, the transitional game between takedown to newaza in judo bears little resemblance to the transitional game in bjj.

After all, tons of judo black belts compete in bjj. But even the guys with Olympic level judo (Travis Stevens, Leo Leite) don't get as much chance to use it as you'd think, and even when they hit takedowns they don't necessarily get good position off them. Much more common is a quick footsweep or reap that gives their opponent a regular guard. To think you are easily going to be launching high-level competitors into side control is just not realistic.
Click to expand...

The rules of judo do not emphasize forward throws. Foot sweeps are scored exactly the same as hip throws/hand techniques. But you are right the strategy in a bjj comp will be very different, and you are right the tranitions are different because of the rules. That's where you must adapt your training. Judo I hope you agree should not be a rigid art ??

What I'm saying is judo will give you excllent gripping/takedowns/transititions/turnovers/pins/subs, as well as training you to be fast/controlling and aggresive. What grappler wouldn't want to add these skills to their game??

I'll certainly not argue about leite or stevens however stevens has said that he does not want to use his judo in bjj. To me a waste but I wouldn't say that to his face:)
 
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Pirat said:
Can anyone be so kind and explain why wrestling is the thing to do for lightwights while judo tends to be favored by heavyweights? I am honestly curious.
Click to expand...

You can't throw someone without a grip. As soon as you get close enough to grip, most lightweights will pull guard. Hence wrestling is a better option for lightweights as you can shoot before they have a chance to grip and pull guard. However due to guard being somewhat unfavorable in the higher weight divisions, people are less likely to pull guard on you if you have a grip, but even if they do, that's where you wanted to be anyway.
 
Ippy said:
Honestly, aren't the rolling throws mainly from big forward throws?

Shouldn't you be able to avoid them with ashi waza? O soto, ko soto, harai tsurikomi ashi, deashi barai....

Especially with that bent forward stance, that front foot is begging for a osoto or deashi.
Click to expand...

100% agree
 
Zankou said:
I think Rodolfo Vieira has an almost ideal takedown game for a HW in BJJ (and HW division is far and away where takedowns matter most), based almost entirely on judo with a few modifications. Love these breakdowns:

[YT]GgkNZeoVSG0[/YT]

[YT]j8EusEhPqNY[/YT]

People complain that judo doesn't allow leg grabs, but it's not like the leg grabs that work well in BJJ ... essentially the single leg 'grab' while holding the lapel, and the ankle pick ... are particularly hard to pick up and add to a pure judo game.
Click to expand...

Agreed 100% cracking videos too:)
 
Zankou said:
I've experienced that destruction myself repeatedly and whole-heartedly agree, with one minor point .... some pure judoka are not very good at defending basic wrestling attacks, even coming from a quite weak wrestler.

If a BB judoka has trained a bit defending against wrestlers, on the other hand, then there's essentially no hope for a BJJ blackbelt on his feet against the judoka. He's going to get ragdolled.
Click to expand...

I've trained a lot of judo I'm the past. For a number of years and I have rarely seen a decent judoka get owned by wrestling in a gi. I have trained with ALOT of judoka and wrestlers. Now I have seen guys who suck at judo get owned by good wrestlers... But that's a different story.
 
Zankou said:
I have been thoroughly disappointed by the quality of ground control shown by judoka in MMA. And in BJJ competition, I don't think anybody has ever been much impressed by judoka ground control (compared to going against a wrestler). Generally the sense is that judoka have great kesa gatame if they can cinch it on you ... and some judoka have really nice armbars too, but that's a minority. Other than that, they are behind the curve of the other arts when things hit the floor.

I think judo teaches solid ground control for self defense purposes, but it is not at the level of other grappling arts when it comes to sport competition. Which is not remotely surprising given the amount of training time devoted to newaza in your average judo school ... since training time (not the specific art) is by far the most important determinant of your skillset.
Click to expand...

I agree about the lack of ground control displayed by judoka without a gi. However that's not what judoka train to do. In the gi judoka will demonstrate as high a level of control as any art. In my opinion anyhow:) depending on mat hours and trainging level of course!!
 
MMA made EASY said:
start out at improv places, practice your routine and go from there.
Click to expand...

A lot of F-12'ers have grapplers tunnel vision I wouldn't be surprised if a lot if guys here read improv places as open mats and miss the bad joke.
 
Years ago, Marcelo Garcia told me the two best standup techniques for BJJ players with limited time training standup was the double leg and single leg.

He said that Judo (of course) has it's place, but you will need to spend way more time training it to get good enough to use it effectively in BJJ tournaments.
 
Zankou said:
I've experienced that destruction myself repeatedly and whole-heartedly agree, with one minor point .... some pure judoka are not very good at defending basic wrestling attacks, even coming from a quite weak wrestler.

If a BB judoka has trained a bit defending against wrestlers, on the other hand, then there's essentially no hope for a BJJ blackbelt on his feet against the judoka. He's going to get ragdolled.
Click to expand...

Well in Europe and Cuba for example many judocas and wrestlers crosstrain so they have that blended style, I am lucky to have a friend who invites me to greco for free so I can have a more versatile stand up game that will help a lot in recreational level, well judo alone does this greatly at least here and well I guess everybody is looking for stuff at their own level.
 
kying418 said:
Years ago, Marcelo Garcia told me the two best standup techniques for BJJ players with limited time training standup was the double leg and single leg.

He said that Judo (of course) has it's place, but you will need to spend way more time training it to get good enough to use it effectively in BJJ tournaments.
Click to expand...

I'd throw in a nice ankle pick. But yeah, judo is awesome and fun, but that learning curve is tough...
 
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