So where does one go to learn stand up?

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by SAMURAI SPIRIT, May 20, 2014.

  1. SAMURAI SPIRIT

    SAMURAI SPIRIT Blue Belt

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    Judo has diluted itself so much with all these rule changes that proficiency in judo may not even translate too well in BJJ or even street fighting. Where does one go to learn gi-centric throws and take downs? Are people not going to start private clubs where guys could get together and train without the intent of placing high in judo?
     
  2. jcandoitbig

    jcandoitbig Green Belt

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    'wrasslin
     
  3. Zankou

    Zankou Bringing peace and love Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    What's your weight? If you are a lighter weight player, I would just learn wrestling and not even bother with judo. If you are a heavyweight player, then regular judo will work just fine in learning takedowns and throws for gi competitions. Even under the new rules.

    If you have a sambo club nearby, that would be ideal, but it's unlikely.
     
  4. magick

    magick Green Belt

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    Uh... Not every school cares about competition. Even those schools that do care about competition should still have teachers who know all the throws and can teach you them if you want to learn them. You just don't use them in comp.

    I'm not sure what your concern is.
     
  5. SAMURAI SPIRIT

    SAMURAI SPIRIT Blue Belt

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    There is no wrestling that happens with the gi on unfortunately.
     
  6. Badger67

    Badger67 Taxidea taxus

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    Sambo.
     
  7. Uchi Mata

    Uchi Mata Preaching the gospel of heel hooks and left kicks

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    You could come to my class. I've wrestled a bit and have a black belt in Judo, and my standup classes are about 50/50 wrestling vs. Judo all with the gi on. If I had to choose one, I'd probably choose wrestling for BJJ over Judo just because wrestling and BJJ share the philosophy of establishing control on the ground as being the core guiding principle of standup grappling (not true of Judo).
     
  8. Jukai

    Jukai Silver Belt

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    Call Wiz Cool C and have him teach you Mongolian wrestling
     
  9. beepee

    beepee Orange Belt

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    I have to disagree with you here, one of the Nippon criteria is control and good judo is so often found in the transition. This cannot be said of bjj, very rarely is a sub caught directly from a takedown in bjj?? Or at least not nearly as often as judo. Also like wrestling the pin is in judo so good judo = good pinning or control.

    Not saying the other two don't have it but judo certainly does
     
  10. beepee

    beepee Orange Belt

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    Judo is plenty fine for the street and is one of the fastest most aggressive grappling styles out there. Go train it if you haven't already. Train hard and it will improve your overall grappling immensely.

    Judo is awesome
     
  11. Kozbot

    Kozbot Purple Belt

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    The majority of Judo highlights I watch have people rolling over their opponent after a throw yet still scoring points...
     
  12. Zankou

    Zankou Bringing peace and love Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Judo HL reveals that the theory isn't matched by the practice --- rolling ippon with terrible back exposure after rolling ippon with terrible back exposure:

    [YT]6BQ8tpTN5HE[/YT]

    It is the rare exception where serious control is maintained. I have heard that the new rules for scoring ippon are changing this, but for a long time the judo rules have encouraged almost unbelievably aggressive risk taking in the throwing because there was little scoring emphasis on landing with good control, and because the ref will usually save you with a matte if you get in trouble for overexposing your back.

    Theoretically that is changing, and we will see better judo newaza as a result.
     
  13. Uchi Mata

    Uchi Mata Preaching the gospel of heel hooks and left kicks

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    Sadly, you're totally wrong about the meaning of control in Judo (and I think you're looking for 'ippon' criteria, not 'Nippon' which just means 'Japan'). Control for the purposes of scoring is about control throughout the throw, not control once you hit the ground. That's why the most common scoring throws (uchi mata and seio nage) are almost always hit with a roll through in competition. Because if you land the guy flat on his back, it doesn't matter if he then rolls you through. And that's the problem, and a big part of why competition Judo is largely inapplicable for BJJ standup. I'm not sure what catching subs off TDs has to do with anything, but because the fight is not ended by a big throw in either BJJ or wrestling the emphasis on post-TD control is much greater making the cross over between the two styles much larger. What Judo gives you, other than nice foot sweeps and sacrifice throws (which I do teach to my BJJ students) is good skill with gripping, which should not be underestimated in importance for BJJ.
     
  14. CajunJudoka

    CajunJudoka Judo Brown BJJ Brown

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    Any of those people in that video can thrown a thug without having to roll thru the throw. Come on man.
     
  15. Uchi Mata

    Uchi Mata Preaching the gospel of heel hooks and left kicks

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    Definitely, but can they throw another grappler in BJJ competition without giving up their back or landing on bottom post roll through? Maybe Olympians can, but I doubt the average Judo BB can.
     
  16. Chungungo

    Chungungo Getting some snow

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    Well at my low level I have find that de ashi harais works pretty well against those agressive over crouched BJJ guys.
     
  17. dalexan242

    dalexan242 Blue Belt

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    You don't think that the average judo black belt could enter a local BJJ competition and throw an average BJJ player without giving up his back or landing on bottom post roll through?

    I'm not entirely sure how useful judo once a week is for the BJJ hobbyist/recreational competito, but I'm pretty sure that our judo club has a couple of dozen guys who could enter a BJJ competition at the blue belt level and throw their opponent without giving up their back or rolling through.
     
  18. Chungungo

    Chungungo Getting some snow

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    Look, even with those stupid rules I hate but lovve the art so much I can tell you that for the street and BJJ there are useful moves but usually are not the most flashy ones, Fedor did a lot of Judo sasaes in MMA but once he tried an Uchimata he gave up on position.
     
  19. Uchi Mata

    Uchi Mata Preaching the gospel of heel hooks and left kicks

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    For sure he could. I just don't think modern Judo drop seio nage or uchi mata would be the way to do it. I teach various foot sweeps, ouchi and kouchi gari, and heavily modified versions of seio nage and uchi mata during my BJJ standup classes, they work well but you have to work on changing the throwing action to avoid the roll through or giving up your back. One thing to keep in mind is that throws in Judo often fail several times before they succeed, and against defensive stanced BJJ guys those throws are even less likely to work the first time and one screw up can get your back taken. No ref is going to call matte and stand you up if you try a forward throw and don't complete it.

    My best throw in Judo was uchi mata, though I hit a lot of foot sweeps as well. But I rarely throw uchi mata in BJJ because the risk/reward tradeoff isn't favorable. In BJJ I typically limit my standup to ankle picks, singles and doubles, tomoe nage, foot sweeps, and sumi gaeshi off a Russian 2-1 grip. That's plenty enough to take down pretty much any BJJ guy and none of those takedowns carry high risk of giving up major position (ending up in guard after a failed tomoe nage is perfectly fine a BJJ context).
     
  20. Thai Otoshi

    Thai Otoshi Gold Belt

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    Boom.

    My club is a hobbyist/competiton club that regularly teaches the pickup versions of throws and goes over any throw, regardless of whether or not it would be legal in competition.

    My sensei also doesn't bat an eyelash if I go for a sukui nage during randori.

    It just depends on where you train.
     

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