So What is Wrong With the Nordic Model of Economics?

[ultramanhyata]

As a father that has worked at night and stayed at home during the day for the last almost 9 years to watch my children (still have one year to go with my 4 year old before school, and my wife is pregnant now, so another 5 years after that), I can agree or understand that.

Trolls need to spend less time creating back stories and more time bringing the trolling lol's. JMO.

 

[Uchi Mata]

As a father that has worked at night and stayed at home during the day for the last almost 9 years to watch my children (still have one year to go with my 4 year old before school, and my wife is pregnant now, so another 5 years after that), I can agree or understand that.

Again we get back to the homo/hetero societies. There would be a lot of backlash of people thinking of supporting welfare kids and illegal immigrant kids.

I like the idea of making welfare people work/volunteer but then the thought of setting up a government program to watch over and run the system them seems costly and defeating the point. Also how many people want Shanequa and trail park Betty Sue watching their kids (when they are being forced to do something).

There are a lot of things I would be on board with if we didn't blow so much of our tax money. I don't want 50% of my check going to OUR F'ED UP GOVERNMENT.

What do you think we blow tax money on? Most of it goes to SS, Medicare, defense, and other mandatory spending:

A lot less is discretionary than people think.

Also, I specifically mentioned France because they require early childhood education degrees for their public daycare employees. If it's not going to be relatively high quality childcare then no reason to even mess with it.

 

[James Keith]

Actually, when it comes to aid (per capita), the US is barely in the top 20. The nations you called "insignificant" are topping the list. Sweden 1, Finland 2, Denmark 4, Finland 7.

Before I knew any better I was also under the impression that America, as we hear from during foreign policy debates at presidential elections, was giving a lot of money to poor nations. Well, we do help a lot, but a lot of this "aid" has strings attached and in many cases this money finds its way back, like our military aid to Israel and Egypt which is nothing more than a welfare check to our defense contractors.

http://www.globalissues.org/article/35/foreign-aid-development-assistance

Charitable giving (i.e. voluntary, not from taxes) is something like ten times as much as foreign aid. And the US gives the most, both per capita and as a percentage of GDP.

It also makes a lot more sense to give your money to a good charity than have your govt give your money to a corrupt govt.

 

[panamaican]

Small, stable, in a safe neighborhood and can off-load defense, mostly homogeneous, oil-exporting countries can afford a lot of non-optimal spending.

the thread really didn't need to go past this point.

/thread.

 

[SuperGNP]

Charitable giving (i.e. voluntary, not from taxes) is something like ten times as much as foreign aid. And the US gives the most, both per capita and as a percentage of GDP.

It also makes a lot more sense to give your money to a good charity than have your govt give your money to a corrupt govt.

that is disputable. There is no denying Americans are giving. In fact, we lead the world in charities, followed closely by Canada, Myanmar and New Zealand, which are tied for 2nd. But Americans mostly give their time, volunteering and offering a helping hand. In financial terms, we are behind Myannmar, Malta, New Zealand, Canada, The Netherlands, UK, and a few others. But this was last year. On the last 5 years average, we still lag behind Malta, Thailand, UK, Australia, Canada and a few more.

https://www.cafonline.org/PDF/WorldGivingIndex2013_1374AWEB.pdf

But the above report does not differentiate domestic and international charities. When it comes to international donations that's more difficult to track individuals who sent money abroad from the United States may or may not be American citizens, and in some cases are dual citizenship, for example, American/Israeli nationalities. As far as I understand - and those who know more about this please feel free to interject - the IMF only tracks FDI, portfolio investment and gifts, in terms of international money remittance. They are not concerned with the nationalities of the people sending the money. That makes it difficult to establish the citizenship of those who are donating money.

 

[Thames]

the thread really didn't need to go past this point.

/thread.

Did you just /thread an Oldgoat post?
I wonder where the fuck the danish government is hiding our oil money.. Perhaps they send it to the Vatican? IDL can you clarify on this?
I also didn't know that an entire region in Northern Europe qualified as being a "neighbourhood". I thought that among other things, the people and policies of a country played a part in making a country safe. But apparently Scandinavia is just naturally predisposed to being a "safe neighbourhood". Lol.

But apparently you think that Oldgoats one-sentence analysis of a complex subject like economic models and behaviour of ~20 million people, was good enough to end the thread.

 

[MeatheadMike]

You may know about the Nordic model but your reading comprehension sucks.

I have not only stated issues with population but, geography, cultural and social issues, political landscape concerns, military might, world financial aid/military aid/food, etc.

There is a plethora of issues. I have listed many.

Can you show me a nation the size of America that ahs used the Nordic model? hell can you show me a country half the size? Ok how about 1/3 the size?

You can't because there has never been a country even 1/3 the size of the us try it and last.

That doesn't mean it is not possible, but i'm not really willing to find out. Because you know once the government has that tax money, No matter how bad a system might be, they aren't giving up that money.

So now we have a shitty system and I'm losing more money out of my check.

I and I think a lot of other people aren't willing to risk 50% of our check to find out if it would work.

So you are basically saying the reason the Nordic model can't be implemented in larger nation has more to do with people being are afraid of political change than the Nordic model itself being scaleable. Yes that seems about right.

 

[drowningidiot]

So you are basically saying the reason the Nordic model can't be implemented in larger nation has more to do with people being are afraid of political change than the Nordic model itself being scaleable. Yes that seems about right.

It can't work in America because of the backwards rightwing political culture.

Scandanavia doesn't doesn't have as big of a population or the same level of ethnic diversity but it doesn't have a GOP or a Tea Party either and that's a much bigger advantage than either oil or demographics.

 

[James Keith]

that is disputable. There is no denying Americans are giving. In fact, we lead the world in charities, followed closely by Canada, Myanmar and New Zealand, which are tied for 2nd. But Americans mostly give their time, volunteering and offering a helping hand. In financial terms, we are behind Myannmar, Malta, New Zealand, Canada, The Netherlands, UK, and a few others. But this was last year. On the last 5 years average, we still lag behind Malta, Thailand, UK, Australia, Canada and a few more.

https://www.cafonline.org/PDF/WorldGivingIndex2013_1374AWEB.pdf

But the above report does not differentiate domestic and international charities. When it comes to international donations that's more difficult to track individuals who sent money abroad from the United States may or may not be American citizens, and in some cases are dual citizenship, for example, American/Israeli nationalities. As far as I understand - and those who know more about this please feel free to interject - the IMF only tracks FDI, portfolio investment and gifts, in terms of international money remittance. They are not concerned with the nationalities of the people sending the money. That makes it difficult to establish the citizenship of those who are donating money.

Your source does not appear to address what I said, it only compares percentage of the population who claimed they give something on a survey. In actual dollar terms the US is around 3x other countries.

 

[IGIT]

The response I usually get is that it works in those countries because they don't have lots of blacks and Mexicans bringing down the system.

hello DrowningIdiot,

let me ask you a question, one that i know is impolitic to ask;

is it possible for a pov to be both racist and realistic at the same time?

- IGIT

 

[Jack V Savage]

Did you just /thread an Oldgoat post?
I wonder where the fuck the danish government is hiding our oil money.. Perhaps they send it to the Vatican? IDL can you clarify on this?

Bertrand Russell can handle this one:

If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance with his instincts, he will accept it even on the slenderest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way.

It can't work in America because of the backwards rightwing political culture.

Scandanavia doesn't doesn't have as big of a population or the same level of ethnic diversity but it doesn't have a GOP or a Tea Party either and that's a much bigger advantage than either oil or demographics.

Agreed. The biggest obstacle to improvement in America pretty much across the board is that we have a intellectually backwards subnation within our borders with disproportionate influence over our gov't.

hello DrowningIdiot,

let me ask you a question, one that i know is impolitic to ask;

is it possible for a pov to be both racist and realistic at the same time?

No, of course not. If you're a racist, of course you believe that you're just being realistic, but that's just because you're an idiot.

 

[IGIT]

No, of course not. If you're a racist, of course you believe that you're just being realistic, but that's just because you're an idiot.

hi Jack,

well, its not my point of view, at least not totally.

i just think, when someone points out a West European paradise, "what would happen if we airdropped our black, impoverished, single mom families on your doorstep?"

how would that effect their glossy, aggregate numbers?

maybe the flip side of that argument is that our inner city minorities wouldn't be plagued by issues of generational poverty (and all the associated problems that come coupled with it) if only they'd been ensconced in a more Nordic based socioeconomic system.

maybe large segments of our black populus that are struggling here would thrive there?

(and yes, i'm generalizing - you'd have to transplant the generationally white poor in Appalchia too)

- IGIT

 

[IGIT]

...but back to the OP.

i think it would be a great idea to follow the Nordic model. there still would be fantastically wealthy americans, but there would be more economic equality (assuming the Federal Government was able to successfully implement greater wealth distribution policies).

- IGIT

 

[OldGoat]

...but back to the OP.

i think it would be a great idea to follow the Nordic model. there still would be fantastically wealthy americans, but there would be more economic equality (assuming the Federal Government was able to successfully implement greater wealth distribution policies).

- IGIT

Lol, if it were only so easy as to legislate wealth...

 

[Jack V Savage]

i just think, when someone points out a West European paradise, "what would happen if we airdropped our black, impoverished, single mom families on your doorstep?"

how would that effect your glossy, aggregate numbers?

What would happen? And why would the skin tone be a relevant factor?

maybe the flip side of that argument is that our inner city minorities wouldn't be plagued by issues of generational poverty (and all the associated problems that come coupled with it) if only they'd been ensconced in a more Nordic based socioeconomic system.

In terms of economics, I don't think it matters at all. What works in one place would work in another. In terms of politics, history, culture, and the perception of diversity all matter. That's what I was getting at when I noted that the failure of the South to develop intellectually in line with the rest of the nation or other developed nations is a major drag on our economy.

 

[IGIT]

hello Jack,

What would happen? And why would the skin tone be a relevant factor?

i don't know why skin tone would be a factor...then again, i don't know why asian americans often outperform white americans...or why black americans seem to usually underperform against white americans.

i don't think skin color makes you smart or dumb, or rich or poor. i know to really grasp such issues you have to delve into the meta data of cultural differences that different ethnic groups have.

*shrugs*

Best known for urban blight and local corruption, Camden has an unemployment rate of 17 percent and 35 percent of its 80,000 inhabitants live below the poverty line. Fifty percent of residents are black, 15.5 percent white, 2.6 percent Asian; 10,000 people are crammed into each square mile. In 2008, the Federal Bureau of Investigation ranked it as the most dangerous city in America.

Camden High School, with an enrollment of 1,200 students, has less than a 40 percent graduation rate, and the former district chief of security Thomas Hewes-Eddinger has called it a “mini-jail.” Yet the district spends $23,356 per student, more than twice the national average.

Nearly 2,200 miles away lies the opposite example: the lowest-cost school district . Alpine school district is located in American Fork, Utah, a town of 27,000 people at the foot of Mount Timpanogos. The racial makeup is 95 percent white, 0.16 percent black and 0.65 percent Asian. The town’s median household income is $52,000; 4 percent of the population lives below the poverty line. The district spends a mere $5,658 per student, nearly half the national average, and has a 78 percent graduation rate.

http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Artic...-Education-Money-Can-Buy#sthash.7FjifaTZ.dpuf

In terms of economics, I don't think it matters at all. What works in one place would work in another.

i'd agree with that, seems common sensical to me, that is, unless the other facets you highlighted...the politics, the cultural history, etc, etc, don't match up.

i think the model cited in the OP would certainly work if you broke up the United States (which is really a huge country compared to Norway or Finland) into smaller countries, "gerrymandering style". we'd have some countries in what was formerly the United States where this style of governance would work great...but probably some that would fail pretty horribly.

- IGIT

 

[Jack V Savage]

i don't know why skin tone would be a factor...then again, i don't know why asian americans often outperform white americans...or why black americans seem to usually underperform against white americans.

You don't? Seems pretty obvious, if you ask me. No need to resort to mystical racial explanations.

http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Artic...-Education-Money-Can-Buy#sthash.7FjifaTZ.dpuf

Again, big mystery:

http://rutgerswpaf12.wordpress.com/2012/12/19/a-toxic-wastelandalso-known-as-camden-city/

http://articles.philly.com/2008-05-22/news/25262904_1_lead-poisoning-lead-safe-theodore-z-davis

Camden officials estimate that 2.3 percent of the children in New Jersey who have suffered from lead poisoning live in the city. About 80 percent of Camden's housing was built before the national ban on the sale of lead paint in 1978 and about 57 percent of the housing was built before 1950, when lead paint was commonly used in homes.

i think the model cited in the OP would certainly work if you broke up the United States (which is really a huge country compared to Norway or Finland) into smaller countries, "gerrymandering style". we'd have some countries in what was formerly the United States where this style of governance would work great...but probably some that would fail pretty horribly.

It could fail to be implemented, and there could be populations that wouldn't like it, but what do you mmean when you say that in some areas, the model would fail "pretty horribly"?

 

[OldGoat]

hello Jack,



i don't know why skin tone would be a factor...then again, i don't know why asian americans often outperform white americans...or why black americans seem to usually underperform against white americans.

i don't think skin color makes you smart or dumb, or rich or poor. i know to really grasp such issues you have to delve into the meta data of cultural differences that different ethnic groups have.

*shrugs*


http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Artic...-Education-Money-Can-Buy#sthash.7FjifaTZ.dpuf



i'd agree with that, seems common sensical to me, that is, unless the other facets you highlighted...the politics, the cultural history, etc, etc, don't match up.

i think the model cited in the OP would certainly work if you broke up the United States (which is really a huge country compared to Norway or Finland) into smaller countries, "gerrymandering style". we'd have some countries in what was formerly the United States where this style of governance would work great...but probably some that would fail pretty horribly.

- IGIT

Maybe this un-PC book has some information: http://www.amazon.com/Troublesome-Inheritance-Genes-Human-History/dp/1594204462/. Should lead to fun discussion.

 

[Anabolistair]

mostly homogenous is the key here.

 

[Jack V Savage]

Maybe this un-PC book has some information: http://www.amazon.com/Troublesome-Inheritance-Genes-Human-History/dp/1594204462/. Should lead to fun discussion.

Not surprising that you'd recommend it. Do you have any comment on it?

There was a piece on it in the NYRB recently:

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2014/jun/05/stretch-genes/