So does Wonderboy's success bring martial arts full circle?

[RexChapmanFan]

So back before BJJ and MMA became prominent or even into existence, "karate" was the main fighting art that people saw as the thing. When I was a kid in the 80's, karate had an aura where, if you knew karate, you were a bad-a.

Since then, though, karate has been laughed at, especially by those in MMA circles, who find muay thai to be the supreme art.

But now that Thompson is destroying the top of the line MMA fighters with his karate-base, are we forced to say the legit karate people were right all along? Or is this just a fluke of some kind?

 

[Breaking]

Nope. Full circle implies both a return to an origin and a coming to completion.

Even though Wonderboy's expertise is in traditional martial arts, he trains with world class jiu jitsu guys (he's got a purple belt) and high level wrestlers.

That's not a return to an origin, that's an evolution.

And the evolution will continue--more people will look to Wonderboy's style to try to improve their games...

And then the next guy will come along. That's what makes MMA so dope.

Also, people were always wrong about Karate in the US. But not because karate sucks. It's just that Karate is limited. Wrestling is also limited, so is jiu jitsu, so is Muay Thai...

You know the deal.

 

[chunglii]

He's a well rounded martial artist and fighter using all his skills to make his karate style highly effective.

It's not a fluke and it's not that "the karate people were right": you need to be a well rounded martial artist to success, and that's what Wonderboy is. With karate flair.

 

[RexChapmanFan]

Nope. Full circle implies both a return to an origin and a coming to completion.

Even though Wonderboy's expertise is in traditional martial arts, he trains with world class jiu jitsu guys (he's got a purple belt) and high level wrestlers.

That's not a return to an origin, that's an evolution.

And the evolution will continue--more people will look to Wonderboy's style to try to improve their games...

And then the next guy will come along. That's what makes MMA so dope.

Also, people were always wrong about Karate in the US. But not because karate sucks. It's just that Karate is limited. Wrestling is also limited, so is jiu jitsu, so is Muay Thai...

You know the deal.

Eh, but just isolating the striking arts, it seems no one has taken karate seriously for a long time. But apparently it's not impossible that a strong version of karate > muay thai?

 

[aichokyu]

Ever heard of Machida? He already did it, at champion level.
Of course they're not exclusively using karate techniques, and cross train, otherwise they wouldn t be successfull. But their striking and overall style is karate based indeed

 

[MrMightyMouse]

So back before BJJ and MMA became prominent or even into existence, "karate" was the main fighting art that people saw as the thing. When I was a kid in the 80's, karate had an aura where, if you knew karate, you were a bad-a.

Since then, though, karate has been laughed at, especially by those in MMA circles, who find muay thai to be the supreme art.

But now that Thompson is destroying the top of the line MMA fighters with his karate-base, are we forced to say the legit karate people were right all along? Or is this just a fluke of some kind?

Understand this, all martial arts are good! It all depends on the person and how dedicated they are and how good they become at their craft!

 

[RexChapmanFan]

He's a well rounded martial artist and fighter using all his skills to make his karate style highly effective.

It's not a fluke and it's not that "the karate people were right": you need to be a well rounded martial artist to success, and that's what Wonderboy is. With karate flair.

But if he were well-rounded and used a muay thai base for striking, I don't think he'd have the success he's having. So in that sense, I wonder if everyone was wrong that karate sucks.

 

[RexChapmanFan]

Understand this, all martial arts are good! It all depends on the person and how dedicated they are and how good they become at their craft!

Not what I've heard the past 20 years.

 

[Bobby Boulders]

He kinda reminds me of Mike Barnes from Karate Kid III.

 

[RexChapmanFan]

Ever heard of Machida? He already did it, at champion level.
Of course they're not exclusively using karate techniques, and cross train, otherwise they wouldn t be successfull. But their striking and overall style is karate based indeed

Machida was never beating top tier guys like Thompson is, though. To take out Hendricks and MacDonald and look you didn't even get hit in the process is insane. Machida never looked invincible like that.

 

[moreorless87]

Eh, but just isolating the striking arts, it seems no one has taken karate seriously for a long time. But apparently it's not impossible that a strong version of karate > muay thai?

I would say more what it again shows is that the simplified version of Boxing/Muay Thai that's been the dominant form of standup for grapplers turned MMA fighters was very overrated. There was talk for years that this "style" had basically just dumped stuff that didn't work in a "real fight" but really I think this match shows very well its actually a shortcut to competence for people who don't have the time/natural ability to learn a more advanced art(including boxing and MT themselves).

Really though I think this goes more back to the situation in Pride, it was in the more wrestler dominated era that followed that the above myth really grew.

 

[chunglii]

But if he were well-rounded and used a muay thai base for striking, I don't think he'd have the success he's having. So in that sense, I wonder if everyone was wrong that karate sucks.

He is well-rounded: He knows how to wrestle, he trains BJJ, he understands boxing and MT I'm sure. Karate sucks by itself. When you have the ability to defend takedowns and are aware of the other styles you're facing, it becomes very effective.

 

[MrMightyMouse]

Not what I've heard the past 20 years.

yes, past 20 years or more is because of the UFC and MMA's rise. Do remember that MMA has rules and regulations. hardcore martial arts like kajukenbo, Jeet Kune do, and San soo kung fu have no rules and regulations, their aim to to destroy and kill. These are the same style of combat arts , that navy seals train under.

 

[TheGZA]

Kickboxers have been winning MMA fights since UFC 1.

 

[Breaking]

Eh, but just isolating the striking arts, it seems no one has taken karate seriously for a long time. But apparently it's not impossible that a strong version of karate > muay thai?

Muay Thai has the the distinct advantage of clinchwork and a variety of knee strikes, so it will always be an important part of MMA. I don't think that there's any way for Karate to make up for that deficit.

But it doesn't really matter that much, because that doesn't mean that there aren't important things to take from Karate. It just means that Muay Thai fighters and their skill-sets will normally translate to MMA more smoothly than Karate generally does.

It reminds me of the ways Greco-Roman wrestling translates to MMA as opposed to American folk style or freestyle. The better athletes usually go into freestyle wrestling, and they are generally the more skilled group overall, but the guys that do Greco-Roman tend to transition more smoothly into MMA.

Again, I think that it's the clinch game that makes the biggest difference.

 

[Sid Arthur]

We've still only had 3 top level karate fighters in MMA history: Machida, McGregor and Thompson.

What would be even more interesting, to me, would be for the best karate techniques to be integrated into MMA, possibly including the stance, or a quasi Muay Thai-Karate stance, or a tendency to switch between them.

Every technique had its advantages, they should all be utilized!

 

[souvlaki]

But if he were well-rounded and used a muay thai base for striking, I don't think he'd have the success he's having. So in that sense, I wonder if everyone was wrong that karate sucks.

Works OK for Jon Jones and worked OK for Aldo til it got so easy he took a nap

 

[ameeksingh]

Nope. Full circle implies both a return to an origin and a coming to completion.

Even though Wonderboy's expertise is in traditional martial arts, he trains with world class jiu jitsu guys (he's got a purple belt) and high level wrestlers.

That's not a return to an origin, that's an evolution.

And the evolution will continue--more people will look to Wonderboy's style to try to improve their games...

And then the next guy will come along. That's what makes MMA so dope.

Also, people were always wrong about Karate in the US. But not because karate sucks. It's just that Karate is limited. Wrestling is also limited, so is jiu jitsu, so is Muay Thai...

You know the deal.[/QUOTE

Every style is limited. You are supposed to combine it all and take different aspects from each one that work best for you. It's mixed arts or mixed martial arts. I don't understand why some people act like there is a huge evolution meanwhile there really isn't. It's an illusion of improvement but there really is nothing new. I mean maybe a whole lot of new jujitsu or grappling moves were discovered in the last 20 something years. That's about it I believe? All types of strikes in the last 10 years or so........ has there really been an evolution or new discoveries? I doubt it. I mean I could be wrong. The only thing is people are combining different strikes from different arts together. But fucking Bruce Lee did this in 1970s. Who knows, there may have been many other people who did it to but history books don't have anything on them.

 

[Sid Arthur]

Muay Thai has the the distinct advantage of clinchwork and a variety of knee strikes, so it will always be an important part of MMA.

But that doesn't mean that there aren't important things to take from Karate. It just means that Muay Thai fighters and their skill-sets translate to MMA more smoothly than Karate generally does.

It reminds me of the ways Greco-Roman wrestling translates to MMA as opposed to American folk style or freestyle. The better athletes usually go into freestyle wrestling, and they are generally the more skilled group overall, but the guys that do Greco-Roman tend to transition more smoothly into MMA.

Again, I think that it's the clinch game that makes the biggest difference.

Very well said, I agree completely, and just posted some similar points.

 

[moreorless87]

Machida was never beating top tier guys like Thompson is, though. To take out Hendricks and MacDonald and look you didn't even get hit in the process is insane. Machida never looked invincible like that.

I would say the opposite, Thompson got hit quite a few times by Rory and has by other people as well, Machida prior to Shogun looked pretty untouchable vs Rashad and Thaigo.

Machida's game for me was narrower though and he was more of a counter fighter, unbelievably good at landing that straight counter.