So Do We Finally Have a Clear #2 MW GOAT?

[Xoleth]

Whittaker is better than almost everyone on that list around the time Moose fought them.

-Vitor was in his I think either 39 or 40 when Gegard had beat him. This was him of TRT and clearly in a large downward spiral. Getting stopped in every fight post his Hendo match barring Nate marquart.
-Dan Henderson was also in a heavy downward drop. Only relevant win was picking up a knockout over Lombard (who was also on a heavy spiral down)
-Babalu was always bipolar with his preformances. His biggest win a lot of people site is his win over early career Shogun but outside of that he was never elite
-Rory is a welterweight who isn't the same guy who beat Woodley.He beat Lima priot be fair but i'd consider it close to Kelvin in terms of importance. Good win but nothing that fantastic.
-Santos was a drained MW who had a rocky career there. LHW was his division and everyone knows it.
-Lombard was beaten prior to him even being in close to the Bellator champ. His only other high level comp at the time was Gono who he lost to. Fine win but nothing great.
-Carvalho is fine. Nothing amazing but a good win
-Shlemenko is another ok win. It was a close fight and Shlemenko lacks a ton of high level scalps on his name. His record is def more quantity over quality (still good though)
-Goodridge, dude come on lmfao. He was in his mid 40s when gegard slept him and he was done done.
-Jacare is a great win you can't take away from him. But hes 1-1 and Jacare beat him badly in their most recent fight.
-Leites was near the end of his career and was losing to a lot of guys. Fine win IMO but nothing that great.
-OSP and Latifi are good wins but not elite. They both lack big names on their resume.
-Manhoef is another good win but nothing crazy.

Gegard was never consistent enough at MW to ever build a major resume. Thats his biggest issue. Bouncing between beating up gatekeeping LHWs and whoever the UFC wanted to give him at MW has slowed down his actual resume.

Yoel was older sure but is more explosive and better than most of who Moose fought. Old Yoel isn't the same as old Hendo or Vitor. Yoel scalped multiple UFC champs in his run to the title. One of them being Machida who Moose couldn't beat in his prime.(Note Yoel beat Machida a year after he beat Gegard)
Whittaker is obviously his best win. Can't even debate that one.
Costas resume isn't that strong but neither is most of the guys you listed. Lombard was murking randoms at bellator cause their division at the time had no one. In the UFC he started out ok but started to fall flat quickly.
You should have mentioned Hall over a lot of guys on that list. Weidman too, those are very good wins of Gegard that people just don't bring up. Izzy slept Costa who was 13-0 with a big win over Romero and Whittaker who had yet to take an L at MW. Gegard dropped multiple fights to guys like Hall, Lyoto and Jacare in his prime. Izzy never has as of now and its not like he isn't fighting high level comp.

I respect moose a ton for fighting at any weight class. Seriously dudes a gangster. But he isn't Izzy in terms of resume or even skill.

You wrote a lot and not much of it, sorry.
Again, I didn't say Moose has a better resume at MW.
He has a better resume per overall because he has more good wins. And because he fought in 3 different weight classes against much bigger opponents.
Yes, Whittaker is great, but he wasn't this undefeated killer.
Yoel didn't try to do anything. He just stood there, same as Adesanya. Please show me when Moose's opponents or Moose did this.

-Goodridge, dude come on lmfao. He was in his mid 40s when gegard slept him and he was done done.
.

Unlike 1-4 over 40 years old Romero and 1-6 over 40 years old Silva, right?


yuuuge difference

 

[orca]

i dont like izzy but he is obviously there u could debate him or weidman. and lol at people bringing mousasi name

 

[Dionysian]

If Weidman has a case, so does Rockhold, who actually finished undefeated champion Weidman, and his wins over Machida, Bisping and Jacare are comparable to Costa, Kelvin and Romero for Israel.

Not on the "hate him because it is funny to do so" bandwagon for Luke, but I disagree. I think Luke's skillset was ABSOLUTELY top notch and I'd favor prime Rockhold over a ton of guys... but resume-wise his small window hurt him. 2014-2015 Rockhold was an absolute monster. The fact that it opened and shut so quickly though hurts his "overall status" argument for sure.

Weidman's biggest wins were all also against guys that were in the twilight of their prime. Does he deserve full credit for beating them?

Weidman also lost to his peers: Rockhold, Jacare, Moose, and Romero. These were all guys of his generation, he just happened to be pushed to the big show first because he had the most hype around him.

That narrative only really applies to Vitor fresh off his TRT. Machida looked great, technically and physically earning his title shot and then during the TS fight itself. Anderson was fresh off a matrix victory at LHW that had everyone creaming their pants for Anderson vs Jon.

And as I said previously, I don't count losses as accomplishments... but I also don't count them as time machines undoing someone's accomplishments either. Weidman's losses in the latter part of his career don't change any of his earlier accomplishments. IMO.

 

[piepie]

I would say yes
Weidman had a tougher competition than Adesanya, but his losses are pretty bad.
Mousasi has a great resume, but at MW, LHW, HW and OW.
Same for Hendo.
I see nobody else.

Weidman has:
Munoz
Prime Silva x2
Maia
Machida
Vitor
Gas

Adesanya has:
Whittaker
Old Romero
Costa
Gas
Brunson
old Silva

Better competition for Weidman.
But his losses, though...

props dude great great great post.

you broke down their resumes in great fashion. everything you said made sense. Thx for letting me know about Weidman's resume. i forgot he beat Machida, shame on me...

 

[pankrat]

Not on the "hate him because it is funny to do so" bandwagon for Luke, but I disagree. I think Luke's skillset was ABSOLUTELY top notch and I'd favor prime Rockhold over a ton of guys... but resume-wise his small window hurt him. 2014-2015 Rockhold was an absolute monster. The fact that it opened and shut so quickly though hurts his "overall status" argument for sure..

Rockhold beat top ranked Jacare in 2011 and Branch in 2017. Not that small window. Resume-wise; has not smaller window than Weidman neither.

 

[sampuncher]

If Weidman has a case, so does Rockhold, who actually finished undefeated champion Weidman, and his wins over Machida, Bisping and Jacare are comparable to Costa, Kelvin and Romero for Israel.

Jacare wasnt in the UFC. I think for the UFC MW GOAT you can only include his UFC wins.

Having said that, Rockhold is top 5 but didnt defend the belt. Automatically puts him behind the rest for me.

 

[sampuncher]

Not that old, though. There is a big difference from 37 to 42.
Machida was on 2 wins and Vitor had 3 KOs in a row vs Bisping, Rockhold and Hendo.
I am not trying to discredit anything.
Again, Adesanya is the second best MW ever imo. Weidman 3rd.



If Maia is irrelevant, I assume Brunson, old Silva and Costa are also irrelevant. Why Costa? His only good win is Romero and that was a close fight. I know people see him as this killer, because he was undefeated and jacked, but his resume is not much at all.



No title defenses, but I see your point.
Also, he beat Kennedy, Jardine, Boetsch... all three decent opponents.
Still, his losses matter and Adesanya is undefeated for now.

You have to include fight age. Yoel didnt start in MMA until late in his career. He actually had less damage than all of the other 3.

 

[pankrat]

Jacare wasnt in the UFC. I think for the UFC MW GOAT you can only include his UFC wins.

Having said that, Rockhold is top 5 but didnt defend the belt. Automatically puts him behind the rest for me.

UFC MW GOAT wtf is that? The sport is MMA not UFC you dummy.
TS speaks about MW GOAT not about "UFC" MW GOAT.
Only a badly stupid UFC shill shertard would care to discuss about "UFC" MW GOAT. You go check the stat for more tittle defenses in UFC and there you have your "UFC" MW GOAT.
Holly shit with the UFC fanboyism.

Jacare and Kennedy to 5 rounds are great wins under one banner or another, how much of a dummy someone has to be to give them less credit just because they didn't happen in UFC ffs.
They are big wins for Rockold, definitely comparable to Muñoz and Maia for Weidman, or even a badly disminished Belfort even if it was for the belt.

 

[sampuncher]

UFC MW GOAT wtf is that? The sport is MMA not UFC you dummy.
TS speaks about MW GOAT not about "UFC" MW GOAT.
Only a badly stupid UFC shill shertard would care to discuss about "UFC" MW GOAT. You go check the stat for more tittle defenses in UFC and there you have your "UFC" MW GOAT.
Holly shit with the UFC fanboyism.

Jacare and Kennedy to 5 rounds are great wins under one banner or another, how much of a dummy someone has to be to give them less credit just because they didn't happen in UFC ffs.
They are big wins for Rockold, definitely comparable to Muñoz and Maia for Weidman, or even a badly disminished Belfort even if it was for the belt.

Well simplyy because if we're not talking just UFC (in the ufc forum, dummy) then Rockhold is even further down the line because youd have to add guys like Hendo in the discussion aswell.

I didnt discredit any wins not in the UFC, but TS only mentoioned botg guys UFC wins, reading and observing helps.

I know its a Monday and youre sleepy, i can see youre angry but the point still stands. Rockhold wasnt a better champ than Weidman or Izzy and isn't in fromt of them.

 

[Maori]

Why not ? Strikeforce champ, pride champ dream and bellator champ..

Has over 45wins

We will see what iseral looks like after over 50+plus fights.

I can tell your new to mma

Israels like 95-5 in combat sports.....

 

[pankrat]

Well simplyy because if we're not talking just UFC (in the ufc forum, dummy) then Rockhold is even further down the line because youd have to add guys like Hendo in the discussion aswell.

I didnt discredit any wins not in the UFC, but TS only mentoioned botg guys UFC wins, reading and observing helps.

Because Weidman and Israel only have legit wins in UFC holly shit are you actually handicapped?

Yeah Henderson has a case to be #2 as well, but based on resume at 185 exclusively, I'd say Rockhold is above him.

Rockhold wasnt a better champ than Weidman or Izzy and isn't in fromt of them.

Rockhold took years off Weidman's life when they fought for the belt. And has similar nº of elite wins at 185, in or out of UFC you UFC ubershilll. He definitely has a case to be above Weidman, even if it's arguable (with solid arguments, not UFC shills related ones)

 

[sampuncher]

Because Weidman and Israel only have legit wins in UFC holly shit are you actually handicapped?

Yeah Henderson has a case to be #2 as well, but based on resume at 185 exclusively, I'd say Rockhold is above him.



Rockhold took years off Weidman's life when they fought for the belt. And has similar nº of elite wins at 185, in or out of UFC you UFC ubershilll. He definitely has a case to be above Weidman, even if it's arguable (with solid arguments, not UFC shills related ones)

Weidman also beat Uriah Hall pre UFC.

If i got confused with if were only talking UFC MWs or MMA MWs thats neither here nor there because Rockhold isnt number 2 in either scenario. Yes he smashed Weidman but also couldnt defend the belt against Bisping. Im a huge Bisping fan but that stands for a lot.


I assumed we werent talking all time MMA MWs as there was no mentoon of Franklin, Hendo when there should be in a number 2 discussin.


Id have Rockhold in the top 5 but hes definitely not 2nd to Anderson for me.

 

[JustAkidFrom209]

My top 3:

Silva
Franklin
Hendo

However, Izzy is on track on becoming #2 sooner rather than later!

 

[pankrat]

Weidman also beat Uriah Hall pre UFC.

If i got confused with if were only talking UFC MWs or MMA MWs thats neither here nor there because Rockhold isnt number 2 in either scenario. Yes he smashed Weidman but also couldnt defend the belt against Bisping. Im a huge Bisping fan but that stands for a lot.


I assumed we werent talking all time MMA MWs as there was no mentoon of Franklin, Hendo when there should be in a number 2 discussin.


Id have Rockhold in the top 5 but hes definitely not 2nd to Anderson for me.

You are comparing Hall in 2010 to Jacare and Kennedy in 2011-2012. You definitely are clueless, boy.

Rockhold finished Bisping too.

Franklin is nowhere near the discussion because Tanner and Okami in a very close dec are his best wins at 185 but no surprise a UFC shill with no criteria whatsoever bringg Franklin to the discussion. Are you gonna throw the argument of "bu bu but he has two UFC tittle defenses"....

 

[pankrat]

My top 3:

Silva
Franklin
Hendo

However, Izzy is on track on becoming #2 sooner rather than later!

lol Franklin #2 with his 8-3 record at 185, Evan Tanner and Okami in a extremely close dec his best wins in the division.
Tell me about his tittle defenses vs Quarry and Loiseau though....

 

[sampuncher]

You are comparing Hall in 2010 to Jacare and Kennedy in 2011-2012. You definitely are clueless, boy.

Rockhold finished Bisping too.

Franklin is nowhere near the discussion because Tanner and Okami in a very close dec are his best wins at 185 but no surprise a UFC shill with no criteria whatsoever bringg Franklin to the discussion. Are you gonna throw the argument of "bu bu but he has two UFC tittle defenses"....

Whose comparing? Learn to read, I was replying to you saying their only good wins were in the ufc. I answered your question.

You can argue all you want. You spend a lot of time on this forum shouting with yourself.

Fact is, Rockhold aint the number 2 MW of all time. It must suck a UFC shill like myself has to be the one to break that to you.

 

[pankrat]

Whose comparing? Learn to read, I was replying to you saying their only good wins were in the ufc. I answered your question.

You can argue all you want. You spend a lot of time on this forum shouting with yourself.

Fact is, Rockhold aint the number 2 MW of all time. It must suck a UFC shill like myself has to be the one to break that to you.

Then why you bring Hall in 2010 when he was 4-0 in pro MMA? It was not a good win at the time. Seriously you are totally clueless mate

I didnt shout at any point. You spend about as much time as me in this forum but delivering pathetic takes like:

"Fact is, Rockhold aint the number 2 MW of all time"
...Fact? What fact? Don't tell me it doesnt sound texbook shertard: "Fact is that...." lol

 

[sampuncher]

I didnt shout at any point. You spend about as much time as me in this forum but delivering pathetic takes like:

"Fact is, Rockhold aint the number 2 MW of all time"
...Fact? What fact? Don't tell me it doesnt sound texbook shertard: "Fact is that...." lol

If you want facts. Hes won 2 belts in his career and has a total of 2 defences.

Rockhold has some fantastic wins, he was a fantastic fighter and after beating Weidman I thought he would reign for years.

Noones saying Rockhold is a can, helax. Hes just not the 2nd best MW to ever compete.

 

[pankrat]

If you want facts. Hes won 2 belts in his career and has a total of 2 defences.

Rockhold has some fantastic wins, he was a fantastic fighter and after beating Weidman I thought he would reign for years.

Noones saying Rockhold is a can, helax. Hes just not the 2nd best MW to ever compete.

Cool but you dont bring arguments. Your "facts" dont tell nothing.
Machida or Branch alone are already bigger wins than Quarry and Loiseau even if they qualifiy as "UFC tittle defenses" and the others don't. You can't grap this because you are such a UFC shill with no own criteria whatsoever.

I think Israel is already #2 MW at this point behind Silva.
Just saying that if Weidman has a case, as some of you say, Rockhold does as well.

 

[sampuncher]

Cool but you dont bring arguments. Your "facts" dont tell nothing.
Machida or Branch alone are already bigger wins than Quarry and Loiseau even if they qualifiy as "UFC tittle defenses" and the others don't. You can't grap this because you are such a UFC shill with no own criteria whatsoever.

I think Israel is already #2 MW at this point behind Silva.
Just saying that if Weidman has a case, as some of you say, Rockhold does as well.

I agree, but I wasnt saying Franklin is better than Rockhold in terms of rankings? Im saying others would.

Also, I explained the fact that Izzy and Weidman had multiple defences means that for me they're above Rockhold, you took that and shit a bullet with it.

I agree Rockhold and Weidman are very close together. I justified why I thought Chris is higher but its paper thin, they both had fairly similar career paths in hindsight. I wasnt ever saying Chris is miles above Rockhold. Hes a place above but its that close.