So a prime DC vs prime Fedor. Who wins?

Discussion in 'Fantasy Matchup Discussion' started by frye666, Jul 25, 2019.

  1. IGotAHugePeckah

    IGotAHugePeckah Brown Belt

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    The point with Goes is that he never reached full guard and therefore wasn't afford an opportunity to work from the bottom. The subject we were talking about was Coleman's level of submission defence, which he didn't get to show in that fight.

    As far as Don Frye goes, we must make the distinction between dominant position submissions and submissions from guard, which was largely lacking back then for HWs. You yourself point out that Barnett is a fantastic submission guy, but not off his back.

    DC is great at dictating the pace of a fight and I don't see Fedor being able to pressure him without getting wrapped up and taken down.

    You can't have it both ways: you can't point out DC's lack of proving submission defence and ignore the fact that Fedor really hasn't done shit off his back. I mean take Fedor in this hypothetical match up, that's fine with me, but when I start hearing about the submission prowess of guys like Don Frye and Igor Vov off their back, you're metaphorically taking your own argument and putting a bullet in it's head.
     
  2. NoBiasJustMMA

    NoBiasJustMMA Steel Belt

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    DC has only declined due to age, he hasn't had much wear and tear in his 10 years of fighting from injuries or head trauma and he hasn't had many fights over those 10 years compared to guys like Fedor and Cro Cop. I think you're greatly underestimating wear and tear from many more fights and you're overrating how much DC has declined.

    Fedor had a lot of Sambo fights simultaneous to his MMA career and he was the man for years in that sport but he lost in Sambo before he lost in MMA, his own trainers said he was slowing down in the first Afflction event. I mean you have to compare the wear and tear and DC has had far less of it and far less fights per year than both Cro Cop and Fedor.

    DC has had 24 fights over 10 years(2.4 fights a year).

    Fedor had 34 fights in his first 10 years(3.4 fights a year + multiple Sambo matches a year) he likely fought more than twice as much a year.

    Cro Cop had 52 fights in his first 10 years(5.2 fights a year not counting his amateur boxing fights) Cro Cop fought way more than twice as much a year including his amateur boxing matches.

    Fedor and Cro Cop fought way more often, that causes more wear and tear.

    Cro Cop's career average(assuming his amateur boxing matches were in or after 1996, can't find dates) is 6 fights a year over 23 years.

    Fedor's career average(not counting sambo matches) is 2.4 which is equal to the first 10 years of DC's career and Fedor was retired for like 3 years. The activity levels from Fedor and Cro Cop were much higher.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2019
  3. Pakman

    Pakman Gold Belt

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    Durrrr mma has evolved! Guess what stupid, the HW division didn't and if anything, Fedor WAS the evolution. 15 years ago.
     
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  4. moreorless87

    moreorless87 Out To Lunch

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    Its a matter of degrees, I was showing Coleman wasn't clueless grappling wise, he faced opponents with decent ability and wasn't threatened by them and then he faced a couple of top of the line sub guys and was clearly outgunned.

    I think we know that Cormier isn't clueless either, indeed I would say decent evidence he's at least a bit better than Coleman but again Fedor would be a big upgrade for him the same way Werdum was an upgrade for Cain(that Cain himself effectively admitted in avoiding the ground). Your also not just talking about threats of submissions from a fighters back but also a fighter pulling off sweeps/reversals/escapes and I actually think that would be the biggest trouble for Cormier and indeed I think a lot of the test would be his own offencive submission game, is he good enough to keep Fedor "honest"?

    Standing Fedor culd actually fight more defencively if he had to as well, the 2nd Coleman fight for example under US judging there was no easy takedown for Mark he was badly punished looking for one. Whats more I think he's also capable of staying on the outside against Cormier working more of a kicking game ala Monson or the bodykick to Fujita. Indeed I think he was adaptable enough I wouldn't rule out was thai clinch work and knees either if he saw a weakness there.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2019
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  5. NoSmilez

    NoSmilez Silver Belt

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    Cro Cop was a powerful kickboxer in MMA but his skills somehow did not translate in America. He had a sprawl but he couldn't scramble or fight in the clinch. When is the last time you seen a person sprawl in the UFC? It's almost an archaic moveset since power doubles aren't prevalent in the game. I am not sure how you can say he is well rounded. This is the same guy that got knocked out by subpar UFC fighters and went back to Japan to end his career on almost ten fight win streak. He made his career highlights fighting one dimensional guys. It's not CroCop's fault by any means but just the era he competed in. The current UFC HW division isn't deep by any means since they let a few aging stars go to bellator and others had USADA issues. If you want to compare depth you can look at the legendary 04 tournament or the OW tournament; the 04 tournament contestants are almost laughable but it was the best available at the time.

    Sergei started boxing in 2000. Sergei tried out for 2004 Olympics for boxing by going into a CIS country that didn't even have a boxing team for the 2000 Olympics. How many super heavyweights boxers are there in Tajikistan? He did this because he failed to make the Russian team since it's very competitive. I like Sergei but he ate himself out of being competitive. I can give you that he can be considered a good well rounded fighter but he doesn't use it. He is even one dimensional when he competes in K1.
     
  6. NoBiasJustMMA

    NoBiasJustMMA Steel Belt

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    I don't know why you are so focused on the tail end of his career. Cro Cop has been fighting since 1996 and had 109 fights before he ever fought in the UFC. He also had major ankle and knee injuries at the end of his Pride career. I can't think of any MMA fighter that was still in their prime after 109 fights.
     
  7. NILLI

    NILLI Brown Belt

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    wtf lol
     
  8. NoBiasJustMMA

    NoBiasJustMMA Steel Belt

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    Not sure what these random letters mean in reference to my post captain vague.
     
  9. Mamou

    Mamou Brown Belt

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    I agree, I think Werdum would beat DC too. DC isn't going to take him down, he's not gonna want to fight at distance, and he's gonna eat knees when they clinch.
     
  10. moreorless87

    moreorless87 Out To Lunch

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    I think DC is a better technical boxer than Cain so I don't see him being jabbed up quite as easily but as you say he's also more vulnerable to knees and kicks.
     
  11. Mamou

    Mamou Brown Belt

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    I think he's too short and the distance would be too much. Yes, he's a better technical boxer than Cain, but he'd either have to land telegraphed overhands or clinch up to land strikes.
     
  12. NILLI

    NILLI Brown Belt

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    I was just laughing at your pathetic and desperate reply.
     
  13. NoSmilez

    NoSmilez Silver Belt

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    If you are counting amateur bouts with shorter 3 rounds, headgear and bigger gloves.... This is not including smokers and tournament wins. The whole thing gets hard to quantify when you count amateur fights since it becomes a clusterfuck due to poor record keeping. I am not doubting Cro Cop's boxing credentials but he piled it on from 1996-1999 while he was doing professional kickboxing? so that is around 60 fights in 3 years? not including professional kickboxing he had around that time? Other sources have his record as 40-5. He did make it to the Mediterranean Games in 1997. Most likely some part of his amateur career is when he was a kid or else the timeline doesn't make sense.

    Counting amateur fights is silly but Peter Yan, Valentina, Israel and Joanna all have more or less 100 fights before UFC. Even Anderson could be included in this category. Back the to main point of our discussion. Cro Cop wasn't some evolved fighter; he can't fight in the clinch well or against the cage. He never set up his strikes and didn't have the footwork to cut off the opponent. This isn't a physical issue but a technical one. He did pick up some of these skills towards the very end of his career but he was in his 40s by then.
     
  14. NoBiasJustMMA

    NoBiasJustMMA Steel Belt

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    Well then it should have been easy for you to pick apart the arguement yet you didnt even try....probably cause you cant.
     
  15. NoBiasJustMMA

    NoBiasJustMMA Steel Belt

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    Im not sure when cro cops amatuer boxing matches were i stated that in the posts you replied to. My point is wear and tear matters much more than age in MMA and Cro Cop and Fedor have had way more fights than DC has and both have averaged way more fights per year over their first 10 years(DC whole carter).
     
  16. NILLI

    NILLI Brown Belt

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    Nah just did not want to waste my time. You are a blind fanboy.
     

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